# Is Islams global image beyond repair? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824 "2016-02-22T19:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/181 "2016-02-29T02:31:44Z")
That pesky Muslim problem: > **[Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK](https://www.deccanchronicle.com/world/europe/280216/muslim-girls-as-young-as-11-being-forced-into-marriage-via-skype-in-uk.html)** ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/182 "2016-02-29T02:52:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > You apparently have no problem using straightforward English for squabbling and complaining purposes, as in remarks like _"I just find it odd you seem to have the moderators on your side for some reason_". Exactly who is squabbling and complaining? I find this rather amusing, honestly. 😃 > [@Kimstu](#): > > But when it comes to making statements that are supposedly intended to be part of the serious debate on the OP’s thread topic, you seem to feel the need to cloak them in protective bafflegab… _ **Cloaked in URL** _, previous post. OP’s topic, yes? Discuss… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/183 "2016-02-29T03:19:55Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > That pesky Muslim problem: > > [Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK | Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK](http://www.deccanchronicle.com/world/europe/280216/muslim-girls-as-young-as-11-being-forced-into-marriage-via-skype-in-uk.html) Referring to entire groups of people as a “problem”…nothing bad ever came from that, right? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/184 "2016-02-29T06:48:40Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > I thought they were laughing at me. 😕 Yes, but they’re laughing at you **as fellow posters in a debate thread** , not in their official capacity as moderators. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/185 "2016-02-29T06:57:15Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > _ **Cloaked in URL** _, previous post. OP’s topic, yes? Discuss… Well, your linked article in that post is about some Muslim girls being forced into marriage arrangements at young ages, which I think we can all agree is appalling and reprehensible. What are you specifically claiming about the relevance of this topic to the current debate? I mean, I’m assuming that you had something in mind more specific and insightful than just thinking _“this is a thread about negative impacts on the ‘global image’ of Islam, so here’s an article about a bad thing some Muslims do which negatively impacts their image”_. Although based on past experience, I think I may be giving you too much credit there. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/186 "2016-02-29T10:46:23Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > That pesky Muslim problem: > > [Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK | Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK](http://www.deccanchronicle.com/world/europe/280216/muslim-girls-as-young-as-11-being-forced-into-marriage-via-skype-in-uk.html) [Here’s an article](http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/child-marriages-still-rampant/article6668638.ece) from _The Hindu_, on the problem of child marriage. Islam is not the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/187 "2016-02-29T11:29:16Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > That pesky Muslim problem: > > [Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK | Muslim girls as young as 11 being forced into marriage via Skype in UK](http://www.deccanchronicle.com/world/europe/280216/muslim-girls-as-young-as-11-being-forced-into-marriage-via-skype-in-uk.html) So. A headline and a lead paragraph talking about this “Muslim” problem, but with no numbers to indicate whether it is frequent or sporadic. Then, this admission from the author: > [@](#): > > “We see cases from many communities including those from Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, and Mormon backgrounds. No religion accepts forced marriage but some parents are using it as a method of control,” she added. > > Forced marriage was made illegal in England, Wales and Scotland in 2014 but there has been only one conviction and it did not involve a child. One more example of describing a problem that occurs among multiple communities as “Muslim.” ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/188 "2016-02-29T14:54:23Z")
It would be interesting to me to know what pecuniary arrangements bind these fiats. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/189 "2016-03-01T01:09:28Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > It would be interesting to me to know what pecuniary arrangements bind these fiats. Yes, it would. What are you specifically claiming about the relevance of this topic to the current debate? Or are you just trying to change the subject now that it’s been pointed out that your alleged “pesky Muslim problem” is actually a pesky Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish and Mormon problem? ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/190 "2016-03-01T01:56:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yes, it would. What are you specifically claiming about the relevance of this topic to the current debate? That was the first of yesterday’s Islamic shame stories to cross my screen and I wasn’t even looking for it. You can find them everywhere all the time. How many do you think it takes to irreparably damage Islam’s global image? > [@Kimstu](#): > > Or are you just trying to change the subject now that it’s been pointed out that your alleged “pesky Muslim problem” is actually a pesky Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish and Mormon problem? Sorry, I should have said pesky “Islam” problem. Which Islamic atrocity or abomination should we tackle next? I’m sure others have done the same as well. But Islam is currently providing the best example of religion-sponsored human rights abuse. By far, in both numbers and severity. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/191 "2016-03-01T02:04:30Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Sorry, I should have said pesky “Islam” problem. Actually, according to the article you linked, you should have said “pesky Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, and Mormonism problem”. > [@UberArchetype](#): > > But Islam is currently providing the best example of religion-sponsored human rights abuse. By far, in both numbers and severity. [A hundred million or so Indian Dalits might have a different opinion.](https://www.tni.org/en/archives/act/1208) > [@](#): > > At the centre of this is entrenched discrimination against Dalits, sanctified by religion. […] > > The caste Hindus subjected the Bairwa community to vile abuse, threats of a “bloodbath”, a nightly siege of their mohalla, and a crippling social boycott. […] > > Rajasthan has a dismal record of offences against the Dalits, with an annual average of 5,024 crimes. These include 46 killings, 134 rapes, and 93 cases of grievous injury every year. […] > > Oppression of 160 million Dalits is an enduring reality of India’s countryside. To be a Dalit means having to live a sub-human, degraded, insecure existence. Every hour, two Dalits are assaulted. Every day, three Dalit women are raped; two Dalits are killed. > This violence has a precise function: perpetuate social hierarchy, defend servitude, and preserve conditions for the ruthless exploitation of the poorest people. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/192 "2016-03-01T02:16:19Z")
I thought the topic was Islam? Do you mean to say because others do horrible stuff on a smaller scale as well makes it OK? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/193 "2016-03-01T07:17:41Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Do you mean to say because others do horrible stuff on a smaller scale as well makes it OK? Nope, I certainly don’t mean to say that. And in fact, I didn’t say that. I’m not claiming that human rights abuses committed by Muslims are okay under **any** circumstances. I’m just questioning your factually unsupported assertion that Muslims are quantitatively committing **more** and **worse** human rights abuses than any other religion in the world today. It seems to me at least equally plausible that human rights abuses committed by Muslims are simply the only ones you really notice. (Which is borne out by the fact that you linked to an article about child-marriage arrangements as evidence of a “pesky Muslim problem” without even noticing that the article mentions that such abuse also occurs among Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Mormons.) ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/194 "2016-03-01T07:48:17Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Again: What if the BNP held an event in the same venue and set up a white only section. Would you object to the practice being labeled racial segregation, as long as they also set up a section for those whites who wanted to sit next to blacks, and offered up a few seats in the white section to black protesters, as long as they didn’t sit next whites that didn’t want to sit next to blacks? Except the analogy would actually be “what if UCL invited the BNP and a non-racist organisation to debate a topic”. And if they did, I would most certainly expect them to have separated seating for the two sides’ supporters if they didn’t want a riot. Which is precisely what was done for this debate, and even when the atheist side decided they objected to this, an attempt was made to accommodate the people trying to make a point. If the debate had been between, for example, pro-Israeli and pro-Palestine groups, would you expect people to sit together? If it had been a fundamental Jewish group arguing against atheists, would you complain if they had similar gender seating options? ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/195 "2016-03-01T08:32:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Actually, according to the article you linked, you should have said “pesky Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism, Judaism, and Mormonism problem”. > [A hundred million or so Indian Dalits might have a different opinion.](https://www.tni.org/en/archives/act/1208) Are you aware that the article you linked to was written in 2002? I’m no defender of Hinduism in general, but in relative terms, I think that it’s both more benign than Islam, and that the regressive forces in Hinduism are significantly less powerful than in Islam. Indian Muslim women for instance, are on average worse off than Indian Hindu women. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/196 "2016-03-01T17:40:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …(Which is borne out by the fact that you linked to an article about child-marriage arrangements as evidence of a “pesky Muslim problem” without even noticing that the article mentions that such abuse also occurs among Hindus, Sikhs, Jews and Mormons.) The only thing borne out so far is the existence of a multitude of reasons, facts, examples and evidence of Islamic insanity. Assuming you wish to stay “on topic” as opposed to refuting my position (which BTW, you have failed to do) Islam’s “global image” as t’were is subjective anyway. It’s what the average person thinks of it, generally speaking, right or wrong. Myself and others have clearly supported characterization of that image, at least inasmuch as posters in this thread are concerned. So what’s your motivation for the argument against Islam’s horrible image? Any evidence to support that, or just focusing on me, personally? I assume you are able to access mainstream media sources. Or are you a shut-in with the Internet your only outside contact? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/197 "2016-03-02T14:35:43Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > Are you aware that the article you linked to was written in 2002? Yup, but it’s not like much has changed in this situation in the interim. In fact, there are [claims](http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/oppression-of-dalits-intensified-under-right-wing-rule-prakash-karat/) that Dalit oppression has actually gotten worse in recent years. [QUOTE=bldysabba] I’m no defender of Hinduism in general, but in relative terms, I think that it’s both more benign than Islam, and that the regressive forces in Hinduism are significantly less powerful than in Islam. [/QUOTE] And my point is that although this claim **may** be true, it’s unsupported. **This whole discussion is based on a concept of “global image” which fails to take into account the fact that globally, Muslim abuses of human rights are considered “news” to a much more significant extent than Hindu and other non-Muslim abuses are.** Case in point: the abovementioned linked article from **UberArchetype** about forced child-marriage arrangements: although, as the article notes, such abuses actually occur in a wide range of communities, it’s headlined as a problem for “Muslim girls” specifically. [QUOTE=bldysabba] Indian Muslim women for instance, are on average worse off than Indian Hindu women. [/quote] Cite for this? In particular, cite that this is so **when factors other than religion, such as socioeconomic status and education level, are controlled for**? Again, my point here is not at all to deny the magnitude or importance of human rights abuses in Islam worldwide. I’m just very skeptical that the “global image” of Islam can be trusted as a reliable **proxy** for the actual magnitude and importance of human rights abuses in Islam worldwide, especially as compared to other religions that aren’t considered such “hot news” globally. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/198 "2016-03-02T14:39:45Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > I assume you are able to access mainstream media sources. Or are you a shut-in with the Internet your only outside contact? See my response to **bldysabba** above for remarks relating to the topic of this thread, but I just had to wonder about this peculiar side issue you raised: Even if I **were** a “shut-in”, are you actually under the impression that “the Internet” does **not** include “access to mainstream media sources”? 😕 Are you living in 1995? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/199 "2016-03-03T15:12:41Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > That was the first of yesterday’s Islamic shame stories to cross my screen and I wasn’t even looking for it. Are you a regular subscriber to Indian newspapers, then? ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/200 "2016-03-03T16:25:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …are you actually under the impression that “the Internet” does **not** include “access to mainstream media sources”? 😕 Are you living in 1995? I wouldn’t consider posting 12-year-old sources anything more than confirmation bias. Great example there, Kim - tied to an even more ridiculous retort. But The Internet certainly is good for that! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824.md?page=11)