# Is Islams global image beyond repair? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824 "2016-02-22T19:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![shoncia888](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f475e1/32.png) [@shoncia888](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoncia888)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/81 "2016-02-24T18:50:07Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I know all religions have/are/can be barbaric, but something came to my attention, and it made me think about Islams image at large, I’ll explain. > > I was watching about the Chinese crackdown on the Uighurs on YouTube, and the comments were of the usual diatribe against Islam and Islamism, but this make me think of a wider consequence, Uighur nationalism has now been framed as Islamic Jihadi terrorism which needs to be eliminated, and allowed the majority of the commentators an excuse to gave carte blanche to whatever means were necessary to oppress peoples of Muslim faith from attaining their rights, even if it wasn’t about religion at all. The same narrative applies with the Rohingyas or the Chechen’s or the Refugee crisis in Europe, pretty much anything to do with the Islamic world. > I’m old enough to remember how Islams image was different 20-25 years ago, when it was just for lack of better words, a ‘normal’ religion. > > Because of this perception, has Islams image to outsiders been completely distorted beyond repair? How do you turn back the clock on this perception or, better yet, improve upon it? Totally right… ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/82 "2016-02-24T18:53:51Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > NO THEY ARE NOT SEPARATE. **SAUDI ARABIA =/= Islamic World**. > > It is NOT common or standard practice, this Saudi idea. Well, this “Saudi idea” has so much influence that Muslim student groups in the UK have controversially attempted to enact gender segregation at their events in public universities. Let’s get real here, Ramira. Of course not all Muslims the world over are completely separated from the opposite gender. But the idea that gender segregation is not an Islamic ideal, but merely a “Saudi idea” is preposterous. Muslim women the world over are even taught to “lower their gaze” when they encounter males, as instructed by the Koran. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/83 "2016-02-24T18:54:54Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > So believe Islam is different than other religions in terms of it’s adherent’s tendencies to not reflect similar demographics to other religious populations? Different circumstances, different outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/84 "2016-02-24T19:09:59Z")
This is a bullshit > [@](#): > > Muslim women the world over are even taught to “lower their gaze” when they encounter males, as instructed by the Koran. I was not so taught, my cousines are not so taught, NO ONE was so taught in my family, in the friends AND no one of anyone I know was so taught. This is bigotted fabrication and distortion. Just like your fabrication about takfir, it is the promotion of the religious bigoted hatred through distortions and lies. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/85 "2016-02-24T19:27:55Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Well, this “Saudi idea” has so much influence that Muslim student groups in the UK have controversially attempted to enact gender segregation at their events in public universities. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/86 "2016-02-24T19:38:02Z")
I am sure some of the idiot student activists propagandized by the Saudi financed salafiste promotion have at a time or another agitated for such measures. This does not change that our schools in the Maghreb are not segregated by the sex, nor are the public schools in the Senegal, nor in the Mali nor in the Guinea, nor in Turkey, etc. etc. - and you can see in any street scenes there is not segregation in public, not even in the Grands Taxis with people packed like the sardines. I will not forget one of the bigots trying to tell **AK84** all women in Pakistan are in burqa and it was not believable for a woman doctor to treat male patients… ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/87 "2016-02-24T19:41:10Z")
This doesn’t help http://www.channel4.com/news/universities-uk-uuk-gender-segregation-demo-protest Unlike some in this thread I’m not quick to tar all Muslims with the same brush, which is idiotic and I wish certain posters stop hijacking this thread to run home with their beliefs that Islam is a supposed threat to Western civilisation, which it isn’t. That isn’t the debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/88 "2016-02-24T19:58:51Z")
It seems for the channel four article that the case is not even from the students, but an organization if I read the [background correctly](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IERA) is indeed one of those salafiste organizations promoting a hateful barely disguised takfiri type ideology. What can one say? these people are despicable and they try to sell the idea their warped vision is the true and pure one - both to other muslims and to non muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/89 "2016-02-24T20:01:40Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Cite please. [Cite please. [/QUOTE] \
\
The Independent, December 2013."]The Independent, December 2013]([Straight Dope Message Board - Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/) [QUOTE=Gary Kumquat;19127705). [The Guardian, December 2013] ([Universities UK withdraws advice on gender segregation in lectures | Higher education | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/13/universities-uk-withdraws-advice-gender-segregation)). [Aljazeera, January, 2014](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/01/muslim-gender-segregation-stirs-uk-debate-2014130111242593264.html). ---
**Author:** ![Fatwater\_Fewl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4491bb/32.png) [@Fatwater\_Fewl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fatwater_Fewl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/90 "2016-02-24T20:08:23Z")
Missed the edit window. Here’s the Independent link: [It’s shameful that our universities have accepted gender segregation under pressure from the most oppressive religious fanatics | The Independent | The Independent](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/it-s-shameful-that-our-universities-have-accepted-gender-segregation-under-pressure-from-the-most-8991593.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/91 "2016-02-24T20:54:33Z")
> [@shoncia888](#): > > Totally right… You need to change your signature. Promoting online business via your posts at the SDMB without prior permission is expressly forbidden. Please do so ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![Hooleehootoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/eada6e/32.png) [@Hooleehootoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hooleehootoo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/92 "2016-02-24T21:39:31Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > NO THEY ARE NOT SEPARATE. **SAUDI ARABIA =/= Islamic World**. > > It is NOT common or standard practice, this Saudi idea. The claim was a general one about gender segregation in Islam and the example was schools. Even if schools are not segregated, do you deny that the sexes are segregated before Allah, in worship? A quick search tells me that only 30% or so of U.S. mosques do not segregate. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/93 "2016-02-24T21:57:38Z")
> [@Hooleehootoo](#): > > The claim was a general one about gender segregation in Islam The claim was an ignorant bullshit claim about women and men segregation and not talking and meeting, not about praying. > [@](#): > > Even if schools are not segregated not if, they are not. That is that. > [@](#): > > do you deny that the sexes are segregated before Allah, in worship? No, sexes are not “segregrated” before God, but yes in a mosque it is usual to have women on one side, men on the other and similar. From the way [we pray](https://www.google.com/search?q=islamic+prayer+prostration+women&safe=off&espv=2&biw=1600&bih=741&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjU_-fMspHLAhVJPRQKHW33C-cQ_AUIBigB#imgrc=NkEX-VMnYX4S4M%3A), I do not appreciate the idea of men looking at the asses of the women in front of them, thank you. This of course has nothing to do the ordinary daily life or the persons completely mistaken idea about the segregation of sexes in common life and the stupid comment. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/94 "2016-02-25T00:12:30Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This is a bullshit > > I was not so taught, my cousines are not so taught, NO ONE was so taught in my family, in the friends AND no one of anyone I know was so taught. I said that the teaching was widespread, not universal. I assume that you misunderstood what I wrote, otherwise offering your personal experience as a counter-example, as if it refutes what I said, makes no sense. As someone who has shared a bed with Muslim women on multiple occasions, in one case for a stretch of several years, I am fully aware that not all of you are taught to lower your gaze (and that of those who are, not all obey). I certainly don’t think of Muslim women as some frail, weak, obedient, passionless species, as you must imagine, judging by your consistently defensive responses. > [@](#): > > This is bigotted fabrication and distortion. No, it is not. Muslims women are commonly taught to lower their gaze in the presence of non mehram males. This is a normal, traditional aspect of Islam. There is no controversy whatsoever as to whether or not this is true. You have no chance of winning this debate in any kind of fact based manner, all you can hope to do is to obfuscate the issue with accusations of bigotry. But it is not bigoted to note or to be critical of a religious practice. If anything, you are the one demonstrating a lack of sympathy, by being so much quicker to defend Islam _the religion_ than you are to admit that aspects of the religion are harmful to Muslim _human beings_. As far as it being a distortion, I can see how you might think that, if you understood what I said to mean that the teaching was universal or near-universal, but that is not at all what I mean. I am certainly not trying to distort anything. The teaching is real, the direct scriptural backing is real. It exists in North America, in Europe, in Africa, in the Middle East, and in South Asia. That makes it widespread. > [@](#): > > Just like your fabrication about takfir, it is the promotion of the religious bigoted hatred through distortions and lies. It is not “religious bigoted hatred” to describe things as they are, despite your typically reflexive aversion to any criticism or negative portrayal of Islam. I abhor bigots and “Saudi financed salafiste” every bit as much as you. And I believe very strongly in religious freedom. Ultimately, we should be on the same side. So chill, and don’t assume everything critical of Islam comes from hatred and bigotry. If I say something that is wrong, tell me. Show me the evidence, and I will change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/95 "2016-02-25T00:21:00Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Unlike some in this thread I’m not quick to tar all Muslims with the same brush Ya Allah. Can we please have one thread where this bit of ridiculous garbage isn’t trotted out? No one here is tarring all Muslims with any brush. Your formulaic accusation towards those critical of Islam doesn’t make it true, any more than widespread outrage towards criticism or mockery of Islam turns satirical cartoons into a human rights violation. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/96 "2016-02-25T00:37:12Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > This doesn’t help I suggest watching [the entire discussion](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1ZiZdz5nao). The video you posted is edited to demonstrate how disruptive the Talibros were. The most interesting parts of the exchange were the parts that they didn’t manage to disrupt, much of it after many had left. One memorable moment was when the women, the Libyan law student, who was kidnapped by Islamists in Libya was visibly shaken by the behavior of the males, and explained that it was because they reminded her so closely of the attitudes of those who attacked and held her. The woman in the second row with the glasses was sure representing reasonableness like a boss. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/97 "2016-02-25T05:02:12Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Muslim women\*\* the world over\*\* are even taught to “lower their gaze” when they encounter males, as instructed by the Koran. > [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > I said that the teaching was widespread, not universal "[the world over](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_world_over) ol All over the world; globally; throughout the world." [/ol] Perhaps you would prefer to amend your first statement? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/98 "2016-02-25T05:11:54Z")
> [@Fatwater\_Fewl](#): > > [The Independent, December 2013]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/<br](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/<br) /\> \
The Independent, December 2013.). > > [The Guardian, December 2013](http://www.theguardian.com/education/2013/dec/13/universities-uk-withdraws-advice-gender-segregation). > > [Aljazeera, January, 2014](http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/01/muslim-gender-segregation-stirs-uk-debate-2014130111242593264.html). Could you post the bit in those links where “Muslim student groups in the UK have controversially attempted to enact gender segregation at their events in public universities.” I note the first two reference the Universities UK’s decision to first support, then withdraw support for its guidelines on segregated seating: > [@](#): > > UUK’s guidance set out hypothetical case studies based on situations that arise on campuses, including where a speaker from an ultra-orthodox religious group requests that an audience be segregated by gender. It set out the legal framework which universities should bear in mind when deciding what action to take. And the third one really does not support the idea of gender segregation: > [@](#): > > Zayd Tutton of the iERA disputed Krauss’ account of events. > Speaking to the Huffington Post UK, he said: "There were three sections as agreed with UCL prior to the debate. This was agreed clearly with UCL representatives. > > "Muslim women choosing to adhere to orthodox Islamic principles in sitting in their own area had their own section. > > “As for those who wanted to sit together, male or female, they had their own section where they freely mixed and sat together from the beginning.” > > Tutton also said the “3 kids” mentioned by Krauss were in fact two men who forcibly tried to sit in the female section. > > He said: "When arguing it was about sitting in any area in the auditorium, they were offered an entirely free aisle in the aforementioned Muslim female section, but insisted that they wanted to sit in between the Muslim females, with a view to offending their religious beliefs. Please advise if you feel I’ve missed something. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/99 "2016-02-25T06:29:26Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > "[the world over](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/the_world_over) > > ol All over the world; globally; throughout the world." > [/ol] > > Perhaps you would prefer to amend your first statement? No, the phenomenon exists on all the continents except for Antarctica, and maybe South America. So the phrase works fine, [as it is commonly used](http://intransit.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/bastille-days-the-world-over/). > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Could you post the bit in those links where “Muslim student groups in the UK have controversially attempted to enact gender segregation at their events in public universities.” > > And the third one really does not support the idea of gender segregation: Gary, please read the text you quoted: > [@](#): > > the female section. When an event which is open to the public, at a public university, has a female only section, that is gender segregation. If the BNP held an event in the same auditorium and had a white only section, that would be racial segregation. It’s very simple. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/100 "2016-02-25T07:27:12Z")
[“All over the world; globally; throughout the world.”](http://www.phrases.net/phrase/7441) [“Everywhere on the earth:”](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/all-the-world-over) [“The phrase “the world over” is used to show how universal something is.”](https://www.englishforums.com/English/TheWorldOver/dwhjd/post.htm) etc, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824.md?page=6)