# Is Islams global image beyond repair? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 22, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824 "2016-02-22T19:56:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/121 "2016-02-25T17:41:34Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I’m trying to work out just where I should rank “some once once said” on the laughable scale, compared to wholesale daily mail posting or claiming that you don’t need evidence to support your beliefs. > > Seriously. “Some one once said”? Get a grip. Nervous laughter I hope because the swing of public opinion is moving against Islam and that is not just DM readers, I am involved in local politics and talk to a wide spectrum of the local community from the far right to the far left, the centre ground is moving towards the right and this is even among our Asian community ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/122 "2016-02-25T17:48:31Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > For what it’s worth, I don’t think anyone conflates your position with Hanks. I mean sure I disagree with you, but Hank’s so far out there NASA couldn’t tell you which star he’s orbiting. So you gave up arguing that gender segregation is not gender segregation, but made sure to stick around and contribute some drive-by ad hominem. Typical. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/123 "2016-02-25T17:58:22Z")
> [@](#): > > **Kimstu** > As Gary noted, though, the question here is not “is gender segregation a big deal in terms of absolute numbers of practitioners?”, but rather “is gender segregation a big deal for the image of the adherents of this particular religion?” It is a big deal, but in public consciousness, Jews are associated with the tragedy of the Holocaust, and the Palestinian issue. > [@](#): > > Surely it would be unjust to say that similar practices followed by similar proportions of adherents are more “image-tarnishing” for Islam than for Judaism, merely because there are lots more Muslims than Jews. But who said it had to be fair? > [@](#): > > Can you identify the specific aspect of this that you’re claiming is relevant to the global image of Islam? Local prejudices combined with the global aspect of Islamic terrorism can compound the traditional prejudice against ethnic groups who are Muslim but whose intentions are nationalistic, not religious. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/124 "2016-02-25T18:01:19Z")
Agree or Disagree: Of the dominant religions in the world today, Islam is the best example of beguiling institutionalization perpetuating notions of Gawd and afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/125 "2016-02-25T18:01:41Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Nervous laughter I hope because the swing of public opinion is moving against Islam and that is not just DM readers, I am involved in local politics and talk to a wide spectrum of the local community from the far right to the far left, the centre ground is moving towards the right and this is even among our Asian community To be honest, I’m more mad at baby boomers like yourself tanking the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/126 "2016-02-25T18:18:01Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I am kind of baffled how the people who think that global Islam **as a whole** is seriously tarnished by some conservative Muslims’ practice of gender segregation in public places reconcile that with the prevalence of similar practices in Judaism. > > AFAICT, about 25% of Israel’s approximately 6 million Jews identify as Orthodox, while about 10% of the 6-7 million US Jews do. We’re looking at about 15% of the total world Jewish population that adheres to various gender-segregation cultural practices as part of their religious identity. > > By comparison, the entire population of Saudi Arabia and Iran combined constitutes less than 7% of the world’s Muslims. Of course, there are many other Muslims worldwide who also segregate genders in public, but we’re not talking wildly different orders of magnitude here. > > How come the widespread prevalence of gender segregation in Islam is seen as a symptom that Islam **as a whole** is ruining its **“global image”** , but the high incidence of gender segregation in Judaism isn’t perceived as an image-tarnisher for Judaism **as a whole**? Gender segregation by Jews does tarnish Judaism’s image. There is just so much more to tarnish the image of Islam. As I posted earlier: [honor killing are supported by a majority of Muslims in Palestinian territories, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Tajikistan.](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-morality/) And they are supported by large minorities in many more places. Saudi Arabia, Somalia, and Yemen were not surveyed. Also, Jews are much more tolerant of mockery of their religion and prophet, and often partake of it themselves. There is no Muslim equivalent to Mel Brooks’ History of the World. If there was one which mocked Mohammed like Brooks mocks Moses, I am sure it would be branded as bigoted, hateful, ignorant, bigotry. Jews generally show more willingness to live in harmony within societies that value the freedom to criticize or mock all religions. Plus, progressive Jews are probably the most vociferous segment, a majority, or large minority. When such groups spring up from and within Muslim communities they are attacked and heavily vilified, and continue to represent a very small fraction of Muslim organizations. Is there any Muslims majority nation on Earth that you would would prefer to live, as an openly gay person, than Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/127 "2016-02-25T19:44:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > It is a big deal, but in public consciousness, Jews are associated with the tragedy of the Holocaust, and the Palestinian issue. […] > > But who said it had to be fair? O…kay. So if this is simply a pragmatic comparison of “branding” issues and effective PR, then I don’t see the relevance of all the scolding of repressive Muslim-fundamentalist practices in this thread. If Judaism can get away with maintaining a lot of repressive practices within its own “fundamentalist” sector because its overall “global image” is dominated by other aspects of its history, then maybe Islam just needs to work harder on its PR emphasizing other aspects of **its** history. I mean, if this is ultimately all about image perception rather than underlying ethics, I don’t understand why the ethical issues are considered so important. > [@Hank Beecher](#): > > Also, Jews are much more tolerant of mockery of their religion and prophet, and often partake of it themselves. There is no Muslim equivalent to Mel Brooks’ History of the World. Well, Brooks is a secular, non-observant Jew in an overwhelmingly non-Jewish-majority society who was writing largely for a similarly secular and/or non-Jewish audience. Likewise, there are in fact anti-theological and anti-clerical satires by secular Muslims in non-Muslim-majority societies, but they’re suppressed and punished in contexts dominated by fundamentalist Muslims. Similarly, satires and other perceived forms of disrespect for hard-line Jewish beliefs are not typically received with tolerance among ultra-orthodox Jews. Heck, those folks even [protest and vandalize public ads simply for including images of women](http://972mag.com/ultra-orthodox-jews-tear-down-bat-mitzvah-ads-in-jerusalem/97905/). So I think there’s a bit of an apples-and-oranges thing going on here: the most tolerant sectors of Jewish society worldwide are being compared with the **least** tolerant sectors of Muslim society worldwide. Now, I quite agree that (so far, at least) the least-tolerant Jewish groups are significantly less powerful and less influential in Jewish society as a whole than the least-tolerant Muslim groups are in Muslim society. But I still haven’t seen any evidence that this difference should be ascribed to intrinsic religious factors rather than to a whole bunch of contingent historical, sociocultural, economic and demographic factors. ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/128 "2016-02-25T19:44:47Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > To be honest, I’m more mad at baby boomers like yourself tanking the economy. I am approaching my 73rd birthday so a little to old to be a Baby Boomer and the only thing I have tanked is a basement ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/129 "2016-02-25T19:52:54Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > Is there any Muslims majority nation on Earth that you would would prefer to live, as an openly gay person, than Israel? Depends what particular subculture within the nation we’re talking about. If I were an openly gay person, I would certainly rather live in some left-wing subculture of, say, Indonesia or Albania, where homosexuality is not illegal, than in an ultra-Orthodox community in Israel (or in New York, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/130 "2016-02-25T19:59:21Z")
> [@](#): > > **Kimstu** > O…kay. So if this is simply a pragmatic comparison of “branding” issues and effective PR, then I don’t see the relevance of all the scolding of repressive Muslim-fundamentalist practices in this thread. That’s fine, because my OP wasn’t really talking about that. > [@](#): > > If Judaism can get away with maintaining a lot of repressive practices within its own “fundamentalist” sector because its overall “global image” is dominated by other aspects of its history, then maybe Islam just needs to work harder on its PR emphasizing other aspects of its history. Which is implied about what needs to be done to repair its image considering the opposite has entered public consciousness. > [@](#): > > I mean, if this is ultimately all about image perception rather than underlying ethics, I don’t understand why the ethical issues are considered so important. My underlying question is primarily to do with image, unfortunately, the debate has devolved into the usual fracas. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/131 "2016-02-25T20:06:48Z")
> [@T.M](#): > > Nervous laughter I hope because the swing of public opinion is moving against Islam and that is not just DM readers, I am involved in local politics and talk to a wide spectrum of the local community from the far right to the far left, the centre ground is moving towards the right and this is even among our Asian community Unsubstantiated opinion and prejudice. That really is all you have, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/132 "2016-02-25T20:12:41Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > Agree or Disagree: Of the dominant religions in the world today, Islam is the best example of beguiling institutionalization perpetuating notions of Gawd and afterlife. Disagree. It doesn’t have anything like the coherent marketing campaign of Catholicism, or other forms of christianity. Too segmented, too much inter rivalry. Hell, look at South America. Absolutely sewn up by the christian meme. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/133 "2016-02-25T20:13:38Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > My underlying question is primarily to do with image, unfortunately, the debate has devolved into the usual fracas. Ah, I see. In that case, as I said, I think Islam’s “global image” is bound to improve eventually just because world media are inevitably going to become more conscious of aspects of Islam beyond Salafi terrorists and theocratic courts. If they’re looking for suggestions to help with superficial rebranding in the meantime, though, I’d suggest a focus on food. A lot of Islamic countries have absolutely **aMAZing** food (though the boiled-sheep-and-rice cuisine of the Arab tribal ur-culture is not one of the highlights, IMHO). Personally, I think sending a nice box of Persian _gaz_ nougat to all messageboard commenters would be very image-building for Islam as a whole. My favorite flavor is rose. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/134 "2016-02-25T20:21:42Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > So you gave up arguing that gender segregation is not gender segregation, but made sure to stick around and contribute some drive-by ad hominem. > > Typical. Sorry, did you miss my last reply to you? > [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So even though there was a mixed section, people where free to sit anywhere they liked, and the protesters were offered seats in the female section, with the sole proviso that they were not sitting next to women who did not want to sit next to men, you feel this is segregation. > > I think we’re going to have to accept our stances differ on that. Are you now claiming that a response like that is giving up? Try harder, there’s a…no idea, whatever you are. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/135 "2016-02-25T20:25:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ah, I see. In that case, as I said, I think Islam’s “global image” is bound to improve eventually just because world media are inevitably going to become more conscious of aspects of Islam beyond Salafi terrorists and theocratic courts. It’s worth noting that Islam’s “global image” will inevitably improve as: 1. The percentage of people who identify as muslim increases 2. The various parties who currently benefit from Islam as a pantomime villain switch allegiance to scapegoating someone else. 3. Someone comes up with a viable alternative to hydrocarbons, cutting off the supply of funds to Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/136 "2016-02-25T20:40:40Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Sorry, did you miss my last reply to you? > > Are you now claiming that a response like that is giving up? Try harder, there’s a…no idea, whatever you are. You are taking the word of the people who set up the segregated event, first of all. Then you are claiming that people were free to sit anywhere they liked, which they were not, even according to the biased source that you cited. And then you are called on it. Others point out to you that the existence of a “women’s section” means that there was gender segregation, just as a “white section” would mean there was racial segregation. And your response is to…what?..to ignore the responses showing the emptiness of your reasoning, and instead harp on about how far out, or whatever, I am, without adding anything substantive whatsoever to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/137 "2016-02-25T20:49:11Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > you are claiming that people were free to sit anywhere they liked, which they were not, even according to the biased source that you cited. Oh aye? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/138 "2016-02-25T20:57:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Depends what particular subculture within the nation we’re talking about. If I were an openly gay person, I would certainly rather live in some left-wing subculture of, say, Indonesia or Albania, where homosexuality is not illegal, than in an ultra-Orthodox community in Israel (or in New York, for that matter). You are moving the goalposts. The question was about _countries_, not _communities_. Obviously, it is possible to find communities of Muslims that are gay-positive, and communities of Jews (in America or Israel) that are not. As a whole, though, I would not choose Indonesia as a positive comparator. It is true homosexuality is not outlawed at the federal level. However: > [@](#): > > Indonesia allows its provincial governments to establish certain Islamic based laws, such as criminal sanctions for homosexuality. These local penalties exist in Aceh and South Sumatra provinces, where bylaws against LGBT rights have been passed.[3] The bylaws criminalize consensual same-sex sexual acts as well as all zina (sexual relations outside of marriage). These sharia-based criminal codes permit as punishment up to 100 lashes and up to 100 months in prison for consensual same-sex sex acts, while zina violations carry a penalty of 100 lashes.[3] > > In Jakarta, LGBT people are legally labelled as “cacat” or mentally handicapped and are therefore not protected under the law. > **[LGBT rights in Indonesia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Indonesia)** > > Lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people in Indonesia face legal challenges and prejudices not experienced by non-LGBTQ residents. Traditional social norms disapprove of homosexuality and gender transitioning, which impacts public policy. Indonesian same-sex couples and households headed by same-sex couples are not eligible for any of the legal protections available to opposite-sex married couples. Most parts of Indonesia do not have a sodomy law, and the country does not curren... Contrast with Israel, this chart makes for an interesting comparison: > **[LGBT rights in Asia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Asia)** > > Laws governing lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) rights are complex in Asia, and acceptance of LGBTQ persons is generally low. Same-sex sexual activity is outlawed in at least twenty Asian countries. In Afghanistan, Brunei, Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen, homosexual activity results in death penalty. In addition, LGBT people also face extrajudicial executions from non-state actors such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant and Hamas in the His... Check out the full range of rights listed: gays in Israel can, for example, openly serve in the military, some bans on anti-gay discrimination, etc. None of that is true in Indonesia (in fact, much of that is rare anywhere in Asia). ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/139 "2016-02-25T21:13:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > gays in Israel can, for example, openly serve in the military, some bans on anti-gay discrimination, etc. None of that is true in Indonesia (in fact, much of that is rare anywhere in Asia). Can you remind me just when it became OK for gay people to openly serve in the US army? ---
**Author:** ![T.M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ad7895/32.png) [@T.M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T.M)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824/140 "2016-02-25T21:14:08Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Unsubstantiated opinion and prejudice. That really is all you have, isn’t it? You always say that when you are stuck for answer [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-islams-global-image-beyond-repair/746824.md?page=8)