# Is Israel digging itself into another hole by forcibly removing settlers?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 21, 2003, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393 "2003-06-21T09:17:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@And\_that\_s\_the\_bottom\_line](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/And_that_s_the_bottom_line)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/1 "2003-06-21T09:17:37Z")
Yesterday, about 400 unarmed Israeli soldiers (all they had were knives that were used to help dismantle the outposts) got into a bloody clash with about 200 settlers as Israeli soldiers started to dismantle the first inhabited outposts (please note that the outposts that were dismantled yesterday were not authorized by the Israeli government and considered illegal by the government). The dismantling of inhabited outposts has left settlers swearing revenge against Ariel Sharon.
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> “This is our home. This is the land of the Jews, and the army is trying to take it away. This is something we can’t allow,” said Yosi Peli, a resident of the nearby settlement of Yitzhar, the community that tried to extend its boundary along a wind-swept ridge near the Palestinian city of Nablus.
Angering these settlers could develop into a real volatile situation for Israel. If the Israeli government is not careful they could have another resistance on their hands. While I don’t know if this would really escalate into a civil war in Israel, this is definitely not a problem that bodes well for Israel. I don’t like the fact that about 200,000 settlers have to lose their homes, but I do think it is necessary for peace (and no I’m not saying this necessarily compares to the thousands of Palestinians that were displaced). This is such a no-win situation. I wish there were a better solution. Atleast Israel is taking some steps (small ones yes I know) towards the peace plan. Even though it’s with some heavy hearts and mixed feelings.
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> “It’s a terrible job we have today. Our orders are inhumane. How can we take them from their homes?” asked one 20-year-old soldier who identified himself as Yoni.
This is a very ugly situation. I just hope this does not end up blowing up in Israel’s face.
[Cite](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=Mideast%20Settler%27s%20Stand)
[Cite](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/127437_mid20.html)
[Cite](http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apmideast_story.asp?category=1107&slug=Israel%20Settlers)
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### Author:  [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/2 "2003-06-21T13:46:11Z")
It is indeed a very ugly situation, and especially for those people who were, be it so called “illegal” allowed for such a long time to live their, organize their lives, dream of their future.
The blame is to put by the Israely government(s) who allowed and thus openly encouraged this to happen.
Of course those people are outraged. Wouldn’t you be?
Yet, not denying their right to feel and react as they do: The Palestinians are been driven away form their homes and properties since years and millions have to live since years in excile or under occupation. And practically every single one of them, those inside Israel, Palestine or outside the boarders, live for such long years in the most deplorable circumstances.
So if your fear that the dismantling of those Jewish settlements will lead to hostile reactions and violence is a very realistic one, how come that people have it so very difficult to picture that the 'organized) hostilities and violence coming from the Palestinian side origins and finds its feeding ground in nothing else then just this: Extreme and unbearable injustice and oppression, force coming from outside and desperation because of the inablility to defend and get your rights.
I’m afraid that the situation isn’t going to get any better by these unthoughtful actions. This is not trying to build a road for peace and agreement. This is putting an additional burden and danger on what is already a desperate situation.
Aldebaran.
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### Author:  [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/3 "2003-06-21T14:49:48Z")
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> \*Originally posted by And that’s the bottom line \*
> **I don’t like the fact that about 200,000 settlers have to lose their homes, but I do think it is necessary for peace (and no I’m not saying this necessarily compares to the thousands of Palestinians that were displaced).**
I don’t think all settlers are going to lose their homes. Under the road map terms, this stage requires all settlements built after 03/01/01 (when Sharon took power) to be dismantled. There are about 62 of them, and some are uninhabited. The people who live in these particular ones are doing so according to their beliefs - in the “Promised Land” of the Bible - and are fully aware that they would need to take on what looks like the entire world if they stand in the way of the creation of the Palestinian state. I have as much sympathy for a settler displaced from a 2001 dwelling as I would for a local person here who built a house and ignored residential building codes. The result is the same: you’ll probably lose the house. That’s the risk you take.
But the settlement issue is a charged one, loaded with political significance, and hinges upon a one-word definite article: “the”.
From resolution 242 of 1967: “(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;”
The US protested the original wording, “ **the** territories occupied in the recent conflict”, signifying that there will probably be some leeway involved in re-establishing boundaries. The very next statement refers to “their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;” which at least recognizes Israel’s concerns of security. So there is no need to ensure that every single solitary house built since 1967 be dismantled, only that _enough_ settlements be dismantled. JMO.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/4 "2003-06-21T15:03:20Z")
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> “It’s a terrible job we have today. Our orders are inhumane. How can we take them from their homes?” asked one 20-year-old soldier who identified himself as Yoni.
Poor Yoni must have crying jags when he supervises the bulldozing of Palestinian homes. 🙂
As mentioned these are all recent settlements, noone is getting kicked out of the house their Grandpa built. Also already touched on is that these settlements were built for poorly politicoreligious reasons and illegal from the get go. Hard for me to get choked up about people getting moved out.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/5 "2003-06-21T16:10:00Z")
One solution (probably unconstitutional) would be for the Israeli government to leave the settlers where they are, but strip them of their Israeli citizenship. They could stay – but only as ethnic minorities in a Palestinian state, with Palestinian citizenship, whether they want it or not; and the Israeli state would no longer take any responsibility for their safety or welfare. I hope somebody in Jerusalem thinks of this. It would cut the knot most effectively.
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### Author:  [@nisosbar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nisosbar)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/6 "2003-06-21T16:16:47Z")
What Aldebaran and CanalK said.
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### Author:  [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/7 "2003-06-21T16:33:38Z")
It won’t precipitate civil war in Israel. Although Sharon has always closed allied himself with the settlers and their political parties, he has started to cut those ties. If he can, he will stay in power with a large majority of Israelis supporting his actions. Dismantling these settlements is an extremely small price to pay for what could be a huge political pay off. It is the first step down the roadmap.
Sharon’s current government is about as right wing as it could possibly get. The Israeli public won’t tolerate further moves towards the right, such as transfer of Palestinians or full reoccupation of the territories. So he must cut back towards the center. It is either make peace as a right-winger (like Begin) or get thrown out and replaced by a left-wing guy who will (as happened to Shamir-\>Rabin or Netanyahu-\>Barak).
So he is bowing to pressure from the Israeli center, the Americans, and the Arab world at a cost of alienating a small segment of tradition allies with whom he doesn’t share much anymore (Sharon himself is a true secular Zionist, most settlers are Orthodox Zionists who increasingly don’t ally with secular Zionists).
The only real problem Sharon has to worry about is assasination by one of those settler wackos, which would eerily mirror what happened to Rabin.
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### Author:  [@torben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/torben)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/8 "2003-06-22T07:51:34Z")
I think it very unfortunate that some people have to lose their homes. But it is a very small price to pay for what could be the first steps towards peace.
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### Author:  [@Eli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eli)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/9 "2003-06-22T10:52:32Z")
You all underestimate the difficuly in removing the settlements.
They are **cities** and towns, with hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands of residents, with schools, community centers, police and fire stations, etc, etc and an entire generation that was born there.
At most, isolated settlements will be removed to ensure the contiguity of Palestine, but most of the settlers will remain simply because it isnt possible to remove them, no matter how just and right you think it is.
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### Author:  [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/10 "2003-06-22T11:40:46Z")
The settlment will eventually be removed, because there’s never going to be a peace deal until they are removed and Israel will always look like the ‘bad guy’ in the eyes of the world while they’re there. It will probably take a left-wing-secular axis government for the will to remove them, but the degenetration of the Israeli economy will be acting as a powerful incentive to both the electrorate and prospective coaltion builders.
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### Author:  [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/11 "2003-06-22T11:44:54Z")
The largest Israeli settlment has 25,00 residents and is a suburb in East Jerusalem.
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### Author:  [@alenar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alenar)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/12 "2003-06-22T13:14:16Z")
It is perhaps too early to decide if this round of “evacuations” is the first step towards anything significant, but so far, it seems mostly a little show for the cameras. This[opinion article](http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=307966&contrassID=2&subContrassID=4&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y) by Gideon Levy, in Ha’aretz, presents a very skeptical view on the current events
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> This is neither evacuation nor a confidence-building measure; it is a deception with a heavy price. This is not the evacuation of real settlements and more importantly, not the evacuation of settlers. This is a farce in which all the actors understand the rules and are playing their role on the stage only to accumulate more power and more sympathy, rather than advance any political process.
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> […]
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> Sharon has evacuated a few caravans and evicted a few dozen radical settlers from one point to another in the occupied territories, and already he is enjoying the best of all worlds. His one hand appears to be evacuating while the other is assassinating.
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> His only goal - pleasing the American administration - is achieved in full at zero cost. The right wing is a little angry, but it is clear to it too that this is all make-believe - the right wing knows full well that Sharon will never evacuate a proper settlement.
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> […]
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> The outposts’ evacuation is good for the settlers, too. They have paid nothing, but already they are once again the victims, the robbed, the usurped. The sound of their wailings and whinings for every rusty caravan moved from its place is especially cynical. They know that the louder they holler, the smaller the price they will be asked to pay in the future and public sympathy toward them will grow. This has always been their way - let out a wail, never mind about what, and extort the price.
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> The pictures of settlers being dragged on the earth are good for them. Most Israelis don’t like seeing their people forcibly dragged. The settlers’ semi-violent resistance to the evacuation of the outposts, most of which were built only as stage scenery for this play, may also convince many that there is no chance of ever evacuating the settlements, without terrible bloodshed. If it is so difficult to evacuate the “Bachelor’s Hill” outpost, how will we evacuate Ofra? And Ma’ale Adumim? Ariel?
An indicator to decide if any action of the Israeli government is truly hurting the settlement movement will be when the
[National Religious Party](http://www.israelvotes.com/demo/platforms_mafdal.html) and/or [National Union](http://www.israelvotes.com/demo/platforms_unity.html) leave the government. So far it hasn’t happened.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/13 "2003-06-22T14:28:28Z")
> [@](#):
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> I don’t like the fact that about 200,000 settlers have to lose their homes, but I do think it is necessary for peace
> [@](#):
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> I think it very unfortunate that some people have to lose their homes. But it is a very small price to pay for what could be the first steps towards peace.
What is remotely sad or “unfortunate” about criminals being removed from land that they are trespassing on? It’s not their “homes.” It’s not their land. They have no right to be there. If someone “settled” in your front yard would you have a problem with calling the cops and having them removed? Would that be “unfortunate” for them?
I think the Israeli government can’t mess around with this stuff. If Israel really gives a crap about peace then they have to stop kowtowing to those arrogant, racist animals who think that they are entitled to take whatever they want whenever they want it. The military should be going in with tanks, not knives.
I don’t understand why there should be any sympathy at all for those people. How about some sympathy for those palestinians who were bulldozed off their ancestral land in the first place? They’re the ones with a legitimate gripe here.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/14 "2003-06-22T15:27:50Z")
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> \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \*
> **If Israel really gives a crap about peace then they have to stop kowtowing to those arrogant, racist animals who think that they are entitled to take whatever they want whenever they want it.**
Isn’t calling Jewish settlers “racist animals” a bit over the top, even for you, **Diogenes**?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/15 "2003-06-22T15:43:38Z")
Well I _do_ think they’re racist. I guess the “animal” part is a judgement call.
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### Author:  [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/16 "2003-06-22T15:50:56Z")
Ok, what then is your opinion of Palestinian homicide bombers? Aren’t they the “racist animals” in the whole mess?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/17 "2003-06-22T15:54:04Z")
What’s a “homicide bomber?”
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/18 "2003-06-22T16:02:03Z")
I guess **milroyj** means the people who drop bombs from planes? Though with conscription the law in Israel I’d rather not call their pilots “homicide bombers”, they are just following orders after all.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/19 "2003-06-22T16:04:57Z")
Oh I see he said “palestinian” so I guess he means bombs not strapped to someones body, more IRA style? Maybe he’s trying to coin a new phrase?
🙂
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 22, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/20 "2003-06-22T16:08:25Z")
Seriously, **milroyj** , I guess you’re referring to SUICIDE bombers (you shouldn’t watch so much Fox News…it rots the brain).
The suicide bombings are politically motivated more than racially. The terrorists hate _Israelis_ not Jews _per se_.
Having said that, I have no doubt that some of the suicide terrorists may have a hatred of all Jews, but so what? How does that excuse Israeli racism?
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