# Is Israel digging itself into another hole by forcibly removing settlers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2003, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393 "2003-06-21T09:17:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/21 "2003-06-22T16:11:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*What’s a “homicide bomber?” \*\* It’s rightspeak for suicide bomber. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/22 "2003-06-22T16:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eli \* > **They are cities and towns, with hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands of residents, with schools, community centers, police and fire stations, etc, etc and an entire generation that was born there.** But how many of those exist. I’m guessing…10? 5? There are supposedly only about 200,000 Israeli settlers. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/23 "2003-06-22T16:31:58Z")
btw I disagree with you **Diogenes** , I think most terrorists have a personal or religious thing against Jews. Palestinians as a group, no, but terrorists as a group, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/24 "2003-06-22T16:45:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*btw I disagree with you **Diogenes** , I think most terrorists have a personal or religious thing against Jews. Palestinians as a group, no, but terrorists as a group, yes. \*\* I still think the resentment stems from Israeli dislocation of Palestinians and the ongoing occupation of Palestinian territory. I’m sure that many terrorists have probably projected this resentment into a generalized hatred of Jews, but the _source_ of that resentment is essentially political. There would be no suicide bombings if there was no occupation. And even if Palestinian terrorists are raving anti-semites, that still has nothing to do with whether illegal settlers are racist. I think the notion that “I am entitled to take this land because I am Jewish” to be inherently racist in its assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Eli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Eli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eli)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/25 "2003-06-22T16:55:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*But how many of those exist. I’m guessing…10? 5? There are supposedly only about 200,000 Israeli settlers. \*\* There are 3-4 towns with population around the 20,000, and many more smaller communities. The conflict will never be resolved as long as people like Diogenes(and the same people on the Israeli side) keep screaming about their precious absolute morals and not moving an inch from their positions because they think it’s “right”. You can cry about injustice as much as you want, but most settlements will remain because it is impossible to remove them. The same goes for Israeli occupation of the Pal population centers and the control of roads. Peace is impossibe when Israeli soldiers are in constant contact with Pal civilian population. Those who make this conflict a conflict of morals and strive for a situation in which only what they think is right will be done with no compromise, only destroy the chances for peace because the other side is as certain in their morals as you are and he’s willing to die for it. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/26 "2003-06-22T17:02:56Z")
_There would be no suicide bombings if there was no occupation._ Considering Hamas believes that Israel has absolutely **no right to even exist** (let alone occupy anything), have so far shown no willingness to change that view, have refused to negotiate with even Abu Mazen and are the one carrying out a decent number terrorist bombings do you think that your statement is accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/27 "2003-06-22T17:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eli \* > \*\*Those who make this conflict a conflict of morals and strive for a situation in which only what they think is right will be done with no compromise, only destroy the chances for peace because the other side is as certain in their morals as you are and he’s willing to die for it. \*\* I think you’re right. But that still leaves the matter of thriving, established populated areas in land someone else is entitled to. (\*not a political statement in there, just stating a problem.) So let’s say most people accept the proposed statehood, the road map goes forward nicely, it’s year 3…what are the practical solutions. If any. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/28 "2003-06-22T17:20:09Z")
Israel != Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/29 "2003-06-22T17:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Israel != Jews. \*\* That’s nice, but who are you responding to? The origins of the conflict are too complex to be broken down to political vs. racial. There was and is still a lot of anti-semitism (in the popularly used notion of the word) in the Middle East. There was a lot of anti-semitism even before Israel was created. That’s not to say that there weren’t any successful Jews in the Middle East, or any large communities. There were - but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t any tensions between Jews and Arabs prior to the founding of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank. Your supposition that the anti-Jewish feeling grew out of the political conflict is not really true. It’s a chicken and egg question. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/30 "2003-06-22T17:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s nice, but who are you responding to? I was responding to **Skip’s** comment about Hamas wanting to eliminate Israel but I got simul-posted. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/31 "2003-06-22T17:51:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eli \* > \*\*There are 3-4 towns with population around the 20,000, and many more smaller communities. > > The conflict will never be resolved as long as people like Diogenes(and the same people on the Israeli side) keep screaming about their precious absolute morals and not moving an inch from their positions because they think it’s “right”. > > You can cry about injustice as much as you want, but most settlements will remain because it is impossible to remove them. > The same goes for Israeli occupation of the Pal population centers and the control of roads. Peace is impossibe when Israeli soldiers are in constant contact with Pal civilian population. > > Those who make this conflict a conflict of morals and strive for a situation in which only what they think is right will be done with no compromise, only destroy the chances for peace because the other side is as certain in their morals as you are and he’s willing to die for it. \*\* You see Eli the settlements are illegal and it is generally accepted by the world that a peace plan will lead to there removal. Also you would never find a Palestinian leader willing to accept anything else but their removal, just like you would never find an Israeli leader who would be willing to accept anyting other than an end to terrorist attacks as part of a final peace deal. Israel turning around and saying it is impossible to move them will simply not be accepted by anyone. There is enough politcal will in Israel to move them, particularly as they act as a drain on the Israeli economy. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/32 "2003-06-22T17:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*That’s nice, but who are you responding to? > > The origins of the conflict are too complex to be broken down to political vs. racial. There was and is still a lot of anti-semitism (in the popularly used notion of the word) in the Middle East. There was a lot of anti-semitism even before Israel was created. That’s not to say that there weren’t any successful Jews in the Middle East, or any large communities. There were - but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t any tensions between Jews and Arabs prior to the founding of Israel and the occupation of the West Bank. > > Your supposition that the anti-Jewish feeling grew out of the political conflict is not really true. It’s a chicken and egg question. \*\* There was infact very little antisemtism in the middle-east prior to zionist colonisation. This is especially true in the region of what is now Israel and the OT. The only two incidents prior to the first zionist settlers I have ever heard of that could certainly be construed of as antisemtism while it was under Muslim rule, was the construction of a tannery next to a Synagoguee and confiscation of a Synagogue. ---
**Author:** ![Eli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Eli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eli)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/33 "2003-06-22T18:04:40Z")
**Tee:** [quote] But that still leaves the matter of thriving, established populated areas in land someone else is entitled to. (\*not a political statement in there, just stating a problem.) So let’s say most people accept the proposed statehood, the road map goes forward nicely, it’s year 3…what are the practical solutions. If any. [quote] Territory exchange. The Gaza Strip is horrendously crowded. An area the size of the areas that Israel will annex in Judea&Samaria will be taken from the Negev and given to the Gaza Strip. Yes, the land sucks, being a desert. But then the city I live in was a bunch of dunes 40 years ago and now it’s the 5th largest city in Israel and the second largest port. **MC Master of Ceremonies:** > [@](#): > > You see Eli the settlements are illegal and it is generally accepted by the world that a peace plan will lead to there removal. Also you would never find a Palestinian leader willing to accept anything else but their removal, just like you would never find an Israeli leader who would be willing to accept anyting other than an end to terrorist attacks as part of a final peace deal. Israel turning around and saying it is impossible to move them will simply not be accepted by anyone. Then the conflict will continue until one of the sides will compromise. IIRC Arafat was ready to accept Israeli settlement blocks, they just couldnt agree on the settlements that will be included in the deal. > [@](#): > > There is enough politcal will in Israel to move them, particularly as they act as a drain on the Israeli economy. Political will, maybe yes. But I would argue that most supporters of such evacuation dont really understand how big the whole settlement project is. I mean, how will you evacuate 250,000 people? Realistic solutions please, “leaving the settlers to take care of themselves” is not realistic. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/34 "2003-06-22T18:15:04Z")
Eli, a staged dismantlment with the removal of the smaller and unfeasible settlements like Hebron, before dismantling the larger settlements in sevreal phases. You also have to remember the Israeli government ‘owns’ most of the settlers houses, especially in the larger settlements, and could simply end the lease agreements. Arafat indicated he might allow the Israelis to keep some settlements in East Jerusalem. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/35 "2003-06-22T18:32:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*There was infact very little antisemtism in the middle-east prior to zionist colonisation. This is especially true in the region of what is now Israel and the OT. The only two incidents prior to the first zionist settlers I have ever heard of that could certainly be construed of as antisemtism while it was under Muslim rule, was the construction of a tannery next to a Synagoguee and confiscation of a Synagogue. \*\* Very true, there was very little anti-semitism in the Middle East. But you have to qualify that as compared to what. Compared to what was going on in Europe at the time? Absolutely very little. Compared to what is in the Middle East today? Absolutely very little. Compared to what exists in, say, Canada today? Not so much. There was no government discrimination. And most Jews were a part of the society and government, very influential in the financial aspects of society. However, they were still not as much a part of society as Muslim Arabs. The Muslim-ruled lands were definitely the most tolerant and friendly towards Jews of all the societies in the world at the time. But the seed was still there. Political problems that occurred with the Zionist movement (starting in about the 1880s) exacerbated the situation exponentially to the ugly situation that exists today. It’s like the situation in Lebanon during the latter half of the 20th century, when a nice, peaceful relatively tolerant and cooperative society of Muslims and Christians broke down due to political problems. The seed was there. ---
**Author:** ![Skip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@Skip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skip)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/36 "2003-06-22T20:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Israel != Jews. \*\* Never said they were, my question to you was asking whether you thought your statement about suicide attacks stopping once Israel pulls out the territories given Hamas’ continued non-recognition of even the existence of Israel, their refusal to negotiate with the PA, and it’s continued use of suicide bombers even now when a withdrawl might be likely was accurate? ---
**Author:** ![Eli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@Eli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eli)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/37 "2003-06-22T20:17:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > \*\*Eli, a staged dismantlment with the removal of the smaller and unfeasible settlements like Hebron, before dismantling the larger settlements in sevreal phases. You also have to remember the Israeli government ‘owns’ most of the settlers houses, especially in the larger settlements, and could simply end the lease agreements. > > Arafat indicated he might allow the Israelis to keep some settlements in East Jerusalem. \*\* Who cares about lease? 250,000 people are chaining themselves to their homes, another 100,000 non-settlers are helping them and almost 1 million people are in the streets demonstrating. What are you going to do? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/38 "2003-06-22T20:25:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eli\*\*You can cry about injustice as much as you want, but most settlements will remain because it is impossible to remove them. The same can be said for suicide bombers. If it’s impossible to remove the settlements, the suicide bombers will never stop. But the funny thing is, when everyone is being equally insane there are no “good” or “bad” guys. Eventually the sympathy runs out for both sides. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/39 "2003-06-22T21:02:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eli \* > \*\*Who cares about lease? > 250,000 people are chaining themselves to their homes, another 100,000 non-settlers are helping them and almost 1 million people are in the streets demonstrating. What are you going to do? \*\* Perhaps I’d reflect on the folly of putting the settlements up in the first place. As I said before it needs to be done in stages, if force is needed to move the settlemers well then that’s just tough luck, they shouldn’t of been put there in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393/40 "2003-06-22T21:02:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*The same can be said for suicide bombers. If it’s impossible to remove the settlements, the suicide bombers will never stop. But the funny thing is, when everyone is being equally insane there are no “good” or “bad” guys. Eventually the sympathy runs out for both sides. \*\* It is a good dealer easier to drum up sympathy for the side that _doesn’t_ target buses and pizza cafes. (For me, at least.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-digging-itself-into-another-hole-by-forcibly-removing-settlers/183393.md?page=3)