# Is Israel of Strategic Value to the U.S. and the West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822 "2017-09-08T17:08:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/41 "2017-09-09T15:19:39Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > As they should have because: > > The Roosevelt Administration refused to allow Jews fleeing the Third Reich to enter the USA; thus indirectly creating the situation that made Israel necessary. > > Palestine was initially split between Jews and Arabs; the Arabs responded by attacking nascent Israel. > > It aligned with US policy that favored independence for colonial lands. We vehemently agree. What are you objecting to? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/42 "2017-09-09T15:26:08Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > US is a commercial and military trading partner with Israel. The US sends billions of dollars of aid to Israel every year. US and Israel collaborate on intelligence and cyber security. > > While the US doesn’t ask Israel to directly support military efforts in the ME, that’s more for geo-political reasons than because they hate to impose on a friend. Also Israel bombs factories that produce WMD in Syria > **[Israel just bombed a chemical weapons factory that Syria shouldn’t have had](https://www.vox.com/world/2017/9/8/16273512/israel-syria-chemical-weapons-iran-hezbollah-factory)** > > This could also raise tensions with Iran and Hezbollah. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/43 "2017-09-09T15:27:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We vehemently agree. What are you objecting to? Very good. My apologies then. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/44 "2017-09-09T19:22:08Z")
Yes. Their efforts at stopping nuclear weapons in the region (bombing Iraq & Syrias nuclear plants, trying to stop Iran), their efforts to kill terrorists and the fact that they are a democracy with western values mean we should ally with them. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/45 "2017-09-09T21:22:43Z")
I don’t know if Israeli intelligence is all that helpful…the book "by way of deception " by a former recruit paints them as conniving and self serving when dealing with other countries one charge from the book was they knew about the beruit bombing plans weeks before it happened but figured it would further their side if it happened … ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/46 "2017-09-10T00:22:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Turkey is a fickle ally. It is focused on fighting Kurds, who are in effect a U.S. ally. > Saudi is a fickle ally. It is presently focused against Qatar, for Qatar’s liberalism (e.g. free press). > Thus Israel is, by far, the U.S.'s firmest ally in the region. U.S. plus Israel make a more formidable power than U.S. alone. > > A key question is not whether the West “needs” Israel, but whether Israel will be enough. A formidable Russia-Syria-Shia axis is emerging, and is growing stronger as U.S. passes up opportunities, e.g. for detente with Iran or for a liberal government in Iraq. How will this develop? Are there _any_ grounds for optimism? I think detente with Iran and/or a liberal government in Iraq are both pipe dreams. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/47 "2017-09-10T00:24:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Yes. [Which the US supported](https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel). The State Department has always been hostile to Israel, and indeed to its own country the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/48 "2017-09-10T00:49:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > As they should have because: > > The Roosevelt Administration refused to allow Jews fleeing the Third Reich to enter the USA; thus indirectly creating the situation that made Israel necessary. Well, that’s just brilliant logic there. If Freedonia doesn’t want to accept any Syrian refugees today, they can still be good guys by supporting a resolution that forces somebody else to give half their homeland to them. Does that work with taxes? Can I write on my tax return, “I don’t want to pay anything, but I support taxing **madsircool** double the amount he owes?” Would I be an even better citizen if I advocated you paying triple? If the world wanted to compensate victims of the Holocaust with land, then it should have given them a hunk of Germany. Instead, the Arabs got fucked over, and the Germans who had cheered themselves hoarse for Hitler got more aid of all kinds than Jerry Lewis’ kids. Sounds fair to me. > [@](#): > > Palestine was initially split between Jews and Arabs; the Arabs responded by attacking nascent Israel. And what do you think Americans would do if the UN voted to give the southwestern US back to Mexico? Or the entire US west of the Mississippi back to the Native Americans? Both groups have a far better claim to the US than the Jews had to Palestine. And Jews comprised approximately 1/7 of the population of Palestine during WW1, so giving them the best half (with a seacoast) wouldn’t be fair even if their “Promised Land” claim wasn’t religious bullshit, or if their secular historic claim wasn’t over 2000 years old. Of course, it isn’t practical to give the land back to the Arabs now. But it was practical to take it from them 70 years ago. Because… the UN voted for it? > [@](#): > > It aligned with US policy that favored independence for colonial lands. LOL. That’s exactly what the Arabs wanted (and were promised) in return for their support of the UK during WW1, and the Sykes-Picot and Balfour agreements stabbed them in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/49 "2017-09-10T04:35:32Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > What exactly are we going to ship to Israel? > > If all we need is an airport, there are airports in Iraq, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Kuwait, and Bahrain. And we have floating airports that we can move nearby. > > We have absolutely no need to stage troops in Israel to invade or attack other countries in the Middle East, and in fact Israel will never allow such a thing unless they already being invaded. > > We have no military assets in Israel, we don’t coordinate military exercises with Israel, we don’t conduct joint operations with Israel. we don’t stage attacks on other countries from Israel, we don’t have US troops in Israel to defend it. Israel is not a military ally of the United States. Compare and contrast our actual military alliance with a country like South Korea. > > The notion that we’re propping up Israel because one day we might need to invade Syria is quite silly. Israel didn’t help us when we invaded Iraq. It doesn’t help us when we bomb Syria. It does not materially support our military adventures in the Middle East. > > All this is regardless of the government of Israel or the cultural ties we have with Israel, or the future status of Israel. Sure, Israel is a friendly country. It is not an allied country. Indeed. I have noticed a notion - among both fanatical pro-Israel supporters and fanatical anti-Israel opponents alike - that America props up Israel to a much greater extent than it really does, and that somehow Israel would collapse like a house of cards without U.S. support. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/50 "2017-09-10T13:16:05Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > The State Department has always been hostile to Israel, and indeed to its own country the U.S. Cite for this deep state crackpottery? ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/51 "2017-09-10T21:40:42Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > The reason I did not go into the history of Israel is that the OP asked about the strategic value. OP did not ask for a moral justification, a historical one, or how support plays out in the politics of the US and the West. > > Strategically - I do not see a net gain, though I am open to arguments for a strategic ROI to our support. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Without including the historical background, it isn’t possible to answer the question. Because strategic value is determined by everyone’s understandings of threats and dangers, and those in turn, are based on how things came to be as they are. Another way to look at this, would be to hearken back a bit, to the time period during which the United States (under Jimmie Carter, primarily) worked to gain Egypt as at least a friendly state, and wean it away from the Soviet sphere. That successful effort by Carter, did a lot to reduce the strategic value of Israel, from a necessity, to being just a nice thing. ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/52 "2017-09-10T22:43:12Z")
In response to the Yom Kippur War, although the US did provide aid to Israel, Henry Kissinger also said, “the conditions that produced this war were clearly intolerable to the Arab nations and that in the process of negotiations it will be necessary to make substantial concessions.” It’s hard to imagine a US politician/official saying something like that in the last 15 years. Starting around 2000 or so, American politicians began bending over backwards to make only the most obsequious statements of unqualified support towards Israel, and even mild criticism became somewhat taboo. Or at least it seemed that way. Only recently has that phenomenon started to let up. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/53 "2017-09-10T23:05:15Z")
> [@RadioWave](#): > > The West has entered the Middle East militarily several times in the last few decades and Israel has never been involved. Even if SA turned against us, the west would still be able to dominate the entire region through NATO member Turkey. Turkey is a very unreliable NATO member. Turkey also refused to allow the 4th armored division to deploy from there in Gulf War II, requiring rapid strategic changes by the American forces. So we already have evidence that Turkey is decidedly unreliable. And it’s only gotten worse as Erdogan has consolidated his power. That said, Israel’s value is not as a staging area for war. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/54 "2017-09-10T23:22:23Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Remember when Israel was created and why? It sure as hell wasn’t set up as a European Invasion Back Door, just in case those pesky Germans got frisky again. It was created primarily because some of the VICTORIOUS nations and Empires promised to do so. The stated reason why it was promised, was to create a homeland for the otherwise stateless Jews, with the somewhat foggy idea that a people who DO have a “home state,” will somehow be better served on the international scene, than those without one. I know… let’s ask the Kurds how being stateless has worked out for them on the international scene. You could also ask the millions of oppressed stateless people around the world, but you’ve probably never heard of most of them because, well, they don’t have political power. ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/55 "2017-09-11T01:01:22Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Cite for this deep state crackpottery? Start with the link which you posted and to which I responded. That’s a very good start. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/56 "2017-09-11T09:16:06Z")
The Kurds are a very good reason for Turkey to be lukewarm in its support for US interventions in Iraq. They are an existential threat to the Turkish state, no matter what government is in power. Trying to include both in its intervention in Iraq was never a realistic prospect. Nonetheless Turkey is strategically important, it sits at an important cross roads and it controls access to the Black sea which is important for the Russian fleet to project power. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/57 "2017-09-11T11:14:22Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I know… let’s ask the Kurds how being stateless has worked out for them on the international scene. You could also ask the millions of oppressed stateless people around the world, but you’ve probably never heard of most of them because, well, they don’t have political power. You seem to be sarcastically attacking me there. Rather rude as well as unwarranted. In answer to your rather snotty rhetorical statement, I will point out that there are lots of stateless groups in the world, some have a bad time because of it, some don’t. Lots of people WITH a home nation, who are in other countries, have a very bad time of it. Clearly, having an official home state has nothing to do with protecting people from persecution or abuse, unless that state chances to be so powerful and influential that it can directly react when they are. Hence my skepticism about the idea that creating Israel would do anything more than assuage the consciences of some of the world leaders who stood by mute, as the Nazi’s tried to commit genocide. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/58 "2017-09-11T11:30:32Z")
A more general response to the title question: For the US, Israel is nowadays a mixed case, strategically and politically. Israel CANNOT afford to be seen as a platform for US intervention in the M.E., for their own sake, and we would not want them to appear to be so, for the sake of our own interests. The best interests of the United States are served by all the nations (as many of them as possible at least) viewing us as at least friendly-neutral. Retaining that balance is the best way to reduce the ability of extremist groups to use targeting of the United States as a stimulant for their followers to rebel against local authorities; it allows us to trade with those nations peacefully; and reduces the sense in those countries that they have a need to cater to our competitors and opponents (such as Putin’s Russia) in order to remain safe from us. If anything, for the last two decades, Israel has been more of a side difficulty for us to do that, than a help. That’s why we have struggled for so long with how to solve the problem of the so-called Palestinians. We don’t want to switch sides and entirely DESERT Israel, because deserting any long standing ally or friendly nation is a bad business, and undermines the rest of the world’s faith in US promises and reliability. As for US politicians here at home, appearing to shift loyalties about Israel I would again point out that many of the ones who do show strong support, rather obviously do so for LOCAL reasons which have nothing at all to do with Israel itself, or with any overall ME policy concerns. They do so either to gain American Jewish voters to their side, or to obliquely attack other American political groups who argue for Palestinian rights. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/59 "2017-09-11T11:33:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Turkey is a very unreliable NATO member. Turkey also refused to allow the 4th armored division to deploy from there in Gulf War II, requiring rapid strategic changes by the American forces. So we already have evidence that Turkey is decidedly unreliable… I’ll give **Mr. Stone** the benefit of the doubt, and assume he is aware that _ **Gulf War II was NOT a NATO adventure.** _ _L’OTAN n’a pas participé à l’idiotie Bush-Cheney._ But that begs the question of his paragraph design. Why did he lead with a sentence unrelated to the rest of the paragraph? When I ask my friend to bring me a gun so I can commit a murder-suicide, and the friend refuses, some of us would NOT label that friend “unreliable.” **Mr. Stone** ’s mileage may vary. Hope this helps. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/60 "2017-09-11T12:22:44Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > The Kurds are a very good reason for Turkey to be lukewarm in its support for US interventions in Iraq. **They are an existential threat to the Turkish state** , no matter what government is in power. Huh? Kurds may be a “territorial threat” (as in trying to get part of Turkey away to be part of a Kurdish state) but they have no designs on the rest of the Turkey territory. Where did you get that idea? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822.md?page=4)