# Is Israel of Strategic Value to the U.S. and the West? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822 "2017-09-08T17:08:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/61 "2017-09-11T12:51:57Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Start with the link which you posted and to which I responded. That’s a very good start. A difference of opinion on policy in Palestine, circa 1947, between the president and the state department does not mean that the state department has a long standing practice of undermining the state of Israel. What would be an even better start is if you provided some reasoned argument for your position. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/62 "2017-09-11T13:07:43Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Huh? Kurds may be a “territorial threat” (as in trying to get part of Turkey away to be part of a Kurdish state) but they have no designs on the rest of the Turkey territory. Where did you get that idea? So you’d support a two state solution for Israel and Palestine? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/63 "2017-09-11T13:17:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So you’d support a two state solution for Israel and Palestine? That very much depends on the terms of the solution. Apart from the fact that Kurds as a people have ~1500 years history, while “Palestinians” as a people have existed for maybe 50 years if at all. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/64 "2017-09-11T13:26:12Z")
Well, a significant number of Israelis don’t appear to be in favour of a two state solution because they believe it to be an existential threat to a greater state of Israel. I can see why Turkey might feel the same way about having to relinquish land to establish the state of Kurdistan. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/65 "2017-09-11T13:36:16Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Well, a significant number of Israelis don’t appear to be in favour of a two state solution because they believe it to be an existential threat to a greater state of Israel. I can see why Turkey might feel the same way about having to relinquish land to establish the state of Kurdistan. … because Arabs have for a long time (and some still do) had claims on the whole territory of Israel and called for Israel’s detsruction. I am not aware of Kurds having such a claim on the whole territory of Turkey or any Kurdish calls for destruction of Turkey. Can you provide a cite? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/66 "2017-09-11T13:43:08Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > … because Arabs have for a long time (and some still do) had claims on the whole territory of Israel and called for Israel’s detsruction. I am not aware of Kurds having such a claim on the whole territory of Turkey or any Kurdish calls for destruction of Turkey. Can you provide a cite? We’re not having _this_ fucking conversation. All I’m saying is that many Turks are at least as reluctant to give up territory to the Kurds as many Israelis are reluctant to give up territory to the Palestinians for a two state solution. Those who oppose such compromises certainly see them as an existential threat to their nation. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/67 "2017-09-11T14:30:23Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Huh? Kurds may be a “territorial threat” (as in trying to get part of Turkey away to be part of a Kurdish state) but they have no designs on the rest of the Turkey territory. Where did you get that idea? > **[The PKK - An existential threat to Turkey ? | Zain Khan & Ceren Kenar |...](https://tacticaltalk.net/2017/05/30/the-pkk-an-existential-threat-to-turkey-zain-khan-ceren-kenar-tactical-talk/)** Have they got it wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/68 "2017-09-11T14:41:47Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > [The PKK - An existential threat to Turkey ? | Zain Khan & Ceren Kenar | Tactical Talk - Tactical Talk](https://tacticaltalk.net/2017/05/30/the-pkk-an-existential-threat-to-turkey-zain-khan-ceren-kenar-tactical-talk/) > > Have they got it wrong? I am not watching a 17 min video. Can you summarize? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/69 "2017-09-11T16:14:48Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > The State Department has always been hostile to Israel, and indeed to its own country the U.S. Here we go. ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/70 "2017-09-11T19:36:23Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I am not watching a 17 min video. Can you summarize? It explains the role of the PKK and how Turkey dealt with the threat it posed. Their intial response was to try to eliminate Kurdish culture and language as distinct from Turkish. They labelled the Kurds “mountain Turks”. However, it goes on to describe how this policy has changed in the past years and while they are still at war with the PKK the Kurds now have representation in Turkey and the Turkish state distinguishes between different Kurdish groups. Some they work with, some they fight. The conflicts in Syria and Iraq have changed everything. Anyway, this is a diversion from the main subject, comparing Turkey as a US ally with Israel. The point is that Turkey had strong reasons for not getting involved with US intervention in Iraq and Syria alongside Kurdish groups as an ally of the US. It was logical position to take given the history of that region. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/71 "2017-09-11T21:06:03Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We’re not having _this_ fucking conversation. > > All I’m saying is that many Turks are at least as reluctant to give up territory to the Kurds as many Israelis are reluctant to give up territory to the Palestinians for a two state solution. Those who oppose such compromises certainly see them as an existential threat to their nation. I don’t agree with Israelis who object to an independent Palestinian country, and I also don’t agree with Turks who object to an independent Kurdish country. (For similar reasons I also think Kashmir, Chechnya, the eastern Ukrainian oblasts, Tibet, etc., should be independent if they so choose). Having said that, the argument that conservative-minded Israelis would probably give is that Palestinians aren’t an ethnic group, Levantine Arabs are an ethnic group, and there are already at least three Levantine Arab states. There is no independent Kurdish state anywhere. (Again, not an argument I agree with). ---
**Author:** ![JBGUSA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/258eb7/32.png) [@JBGUSA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBGUSA)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/72 "2017-09-12T01:04:11Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Having said that, the argument that conservative-minded Israelis would probably give is that Palestinians aren’t an ethnic group, Levantine Arabs are an ethnic group, and there are already at least three Levantine Arab states. There is no independent Kurdish state anywhere. (Again, not an argument I agree with). Why don’t you agree with the argument? Makes sense to me? Is it because Israel is not a basket case? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/73 "2017-09-12T07:46:30Z")
I think even most Conservative Israelis would agree that while the Palestinians may not have been a distinct ethnic group 70 years ago, they are one now. For better or worse, their misfortunes since 1947 have forged a level of national identity that hadn’t existed before. But to an Israeli, whether or not the Palestinians deserve their country isn’t the question - it’s whether such a country and Israel can live peacefully side by side. Deserve’s got nothing to do with it. The main difference between Israel and Turkey is that the Kurds aren’t demanding Istanbul. They’d be happy to chop off a bit of the country and leave the rest in peace. I can’t say the same about the Palestinians ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/74 "2017-09-12T08:01:24Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > … > > We have no military assets in Israel, **we don’t coordinate military exercises with Israel** , we don’t conduct joint operations with Israel. we don’t stage attacks on other countries from Israel, we don’t have US troops in Israel to defend it. Israel is not a military ally of the United States. Compare and contrast our actual military alliance with a country like South Korea. … **bolding** mine Except when [we do](https://www.timesofisrael.com/us-and-israel-plan-largest-ever-military-exercise/) [coordinate](https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2017/03/21/israeli-air-force-to-host-7-nations-in-its-largest-ever-air-drill/) military exercises with Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/75 "2017-09-12T09:15:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The main difference between Israel and Turkey is that the Kurds aren’t demanding Istanbul. They’d be happy to chop off a bit of the country and leave the rest in peace. I can’t say the same about the Palestinians If the Palestinians are the bad guys for supposedly _wanting_ Israeli territory, then even worse is regularly _taking_ disputed territory, right? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/76 "2017-09-12T09:21:51Z")
I don’t recall using the term “bad guys” at any point. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/77 "2017-09-12T10:53:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The main difference between Israel and Turkey is that the Kurds aren’t demanding Istanbul. They’d be happy to chop off a bit of the country and leave the rest in peace. I can’t say the same about the Palestinians Sure you can. The Palestinians aren’t demanding Istanbul, either. Like the Kurds, they didn’t live in Istanbul for centuries, so they have no reason to demand it. Like the Kurds, they’re demanding only the land that they did live on for centuries, which happens to include Jerusalem. In fact, they are demanding far less than that. Even though they lived in what is now Israel for centuries, they are willing to give it up. The Arab Peace Initiative, which would recognize and normalize relations with Israel in exchange for its withdrawal from the occupied territories, was endorsed by the Arab League, the OIC (including Iran), the Palestinian Authority, and the majority of the Palestinian people. Hamas, AIPAC, and Israel mostly oppose it, but even they have factions that have shown encouraging signs. If Israel would agree to abide by it, and a multi-national force (including the US) would agree to enforce it (e.g., from bases to be constructed within the Negev), IMO Hamas would be marginalized, and hopefully would cease to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/78 "2017-09-12T14:25:47Z")
> [@JBGUSA](#): > > Many people have stated that our alliance with Israel is based upon the fact that they are Western and to some extent that they are “white.” Putting aside the fact that many Israelis are of Middle Eastern origin and some are black, i.e. the Falashas of Ethiopian descent, Israel is a major, probably indispensable Western asset. > > Israel is vital to U.S. and overall Western interests in ways that may not be totally obvious. If you are familiar with WW II history, Hitler controlled Europe to the Atlantic Ocean. Spain and Portugal were “neutral in favor of the Axis.” Italy was separated from most of Europe by the Alps, and in any event was not conquered until sometime in late 1943 or early 1944. > > The only usable avenues of attack to regain Europe was on the beaches of France; Normandy and/or Calais. The battle to make a beachhead was a bloodbath. Israel is a giant “Normandy” in the Middle East, a fraught and unstable area. Should the West need to enter the Middle East militarily, Israel is the only country that, as a stable democracy, that can be counted on as a springboard. That is why some Arab countries and groups want Israel out so desperately. Knocking off Israel knocks the West out of a large chunk of the world. > > During the Obama years, his approach was that there is really only one world and that no country’s military should dominate. A beautiful dream and a recipe for chaos. I feel that most Presidents and especially their Defense Departments understood the essential role Israel played. The State Department, in general, has considered Israel to be an obstacle to peace. Over the years, during the Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush I and II, Clinton and Trump years (Ford and Carter were decidedly of two minds, as was Obama, and Eisenhower was hostile to Israel) the U.S. has been pro-Israel or neutral in favor of Israel. > > I consider that we should be allied to Israel both as based on ideological similarities, i.e. it’s a democracy, and for strategic purposes. Israel is a key Unites States ally for historical, and geographical reasons. The lone pure Democracy in the Middle East is one of the very few nations that would risk their own if necessary to aid the United States. In terms of exchanging secrets, Israel could be the USA’s top ally. Their skin is much darker than Amercian Jews due to the climate, meaning they can blend in much better with terrorists like groups or dictators who wish to do the west harm. Isreal is more willing to fight for the USA than France, Germany or most in NATO. At times I am in awe of their restraint. Could you imagine what would happen to a group of people firing 1000’s of missiles at the USA lands? Yes–their land is the ultimate hedge for either a pre-emptive strike or hedge just in case Iran develops a nuclear weapon, and decides to use them. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/79 "2017-09-12T14:30:05Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Their skin is much darker than Amercian Jews due to the climate, meaning they can blend in much better with terrorists like groups or dictators who wish to do the west harm. You’ve never been to Florida. There are tons of Jews there who can blend right in. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2017, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822/80 "2017-09-12T14:41:16Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Sure you can. The Palestinians aren’t demanding Istanbul, either. Like the Kurds, they didn’t live in Istanbul for centuries, so they have no reason to demand it. Like the Kurds, they’re demanding only the land that they did live on for centuries, which happens to include Jerusalem. > > In fact, they are demanding far less than that. Even though they lived in what is now Israel for centuries, they are willing to give it up. The Arab Peace Initiative, which would recognize and normalize relations with Israel in exchange for its withdrawal from the occupied territories, was endorsed by the Arab League, the OIC (including Iran), the Palestinian Authority, and the majority of the Palestinian people. Hamas, AIPAC, and Israel mostly oppose it, but even they have factions that have shown encouraging signs. If Israel would agree to abide by it, and a multi-national force (including the US) would agree to enforce it (e.g., from bases to be constructed within the Negev), IMO Hamas would be marginalized, and hopefully would cease to exist. As long as there is a violent extremist group (no matter how small) that won’t sign on to the Arab Peace iInitiative (and Hamas only agreed to a 10 year ceasefire), Israel can always point to that group and say “see, that’s why we can’t have peace.” Is it reasonable to expect Israel to risk their security and way of life to prevent or alleviate the suffering of Palestinians? Isn’t preserving the Jewish Identity of Israel more important than any suffering that the Palestinians might endure? After all, the muslims might pass sharia law as soon as they achieve a majority… or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israel-of-strategic-value-to-the-u-s-and-the-west/795822.md?page=5)