# Is Israeli saber rattling toward Iran serious or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104 "2008-06-07T05:06:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/41 "2008-06-10T08:17:41Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Well, are you supposed to wait for an attack to be sure that is what your enemies are about? [/QUOTE] Generally, yeah. Look, almost everyone around them says Israel should be wiped out, if you took that as _casus belli_, they’d never stop fighting. It’s different when the tanks are actually on your borders, like in the past [QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] In particular are you supposed to wait for a nuclear attack? [/QUOTE] I don’t know why people get all het up about nuclear. 's not like Iran will be able to wipe Israel off the map in one swoop in this generation. If they’re using anything like the Pakistani tech, which seems about right, they’ll only have warheads in the kiloton range, and not too many of them at first - nuclear weapons take time to produce even with all centrifuges firing flat-out. 's taken Pakistan 30 years to build their current arsenal of oh, anywhere from 30-75 weapons. Nuclear’s not the end of the world (although a first nuclear strike by Iran would be the end of them) ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/42 "2008-06-10T11:32:08Z")
How could Israel attack Iran without America’s connivance? Their warplanes will have to overfly any of Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia and they’d be spotted by AWACS pretty quickly. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/43 "2008-06-10T11:40:12Z")
The only way that i could see the Israelis destroying iranian nuclear capability, is through a massive missile strike, with nuclear bombs. Other than that, a few aircraft-launched attacks will not do the job. If they use the nuclear option, all bets are off-Pakistan will probably attack israel, and etc. Surely a very DANGEROUS sistuation. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/44 "2008-06-10T14:37:57Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] MAD only works when both parties are sane. Ahmadinejad believes the 12th Imam is getting ready to make an appearance and drop the hammer and that Iran is paving the way. His cryptic threats of imminent doom are way beyond saber rattling. the only good news coming out of his country are [clerics](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080507094625.zy32hvir&show_article=1) telling him to shut the hell up. [/QUOTE] Ahmadinejad doesn’t have control over the millitary, though, so he can’t order the troops to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/45 "2008-06-10T15:34:27Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] There is no question that Iran is overtly belligerent towards Israel. Iran’s leaders have publicly stated their wish to “wipe Israel off the map”. Just rhetoric Israel should ignore? [/QUOTE] Yes, they should ignore it. Ahmadinejad is a loud mouth who has no real power. [QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] However, Iran with nuclear weapons is a whole other ball game. This is not the fantasy that was Iraq getting nukes. Iran most definitely has a nuclear program and I do not think anyone really denies it. [/QUOTE] The American intelligence community doesn’t believe Iran has a nuclear program. [The National Intelligence Estimate on Iran](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7125701.stm) says Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/46 "2008-06-10T15:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=Whack-a-Mole] Iran probably sees itself as THE regional power. Little stands in its way except Israel and perhaps Saudi Arabia. Nukes would certainly aid them in that goal. [/QUOTE] What goal are you referring to? For all it’s loud talk, Iran has never invaded another country. Why would they do so now? Especially when they have plenty of influence without having to go to war. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/47 "2008-06-10T15:38:32Z")
[QUOTE=Alex\_Dubinsky] btw, do you remember what happened with Iraq? We kept bullying them, bombing them, being dicks to them in person. Eventually when we made up lies about them having WMD, they were too worked up to deny the allegations. They would let America invade, if only out of pride. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry, but you’re misremembering these events. They did deny the allegations of having WMD, and they allowed inspectors into the country to have a look. The U.S. just ignored their denials. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/48 "2008-06-10T15:44:08Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Israel is a tiny tiny country, inhabited by Jews, who are a tiny tiny percentage of the world’s people, and who numerous people over the years have literally tried to exterminate. It’s surrounded by big, big countries filled with people who hate them. One of those countries has a leader who says that he wants to remove Israel from the map. This leader is trying to build a device whose purpose is to remove small countries from maps. What is there not to understand here? [/QUOTE] Of course, looking at it from the Iranian point of view, Israel has a mighty military, they possess nuclear weapons, and they have a close relationship with the most powerful military in the world. Israel also has shown a willingness and history of invading and attacking nearby countries (something that Iran hasn’t done), and they are trying to get the U.S. to attack Iran. How should Iran respond to that? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/49 "2008-06-10T16:51:56Z")
[QUOTE=davidw] The American intelligence community doesn’t believe Iran has a nuclear program. [The National Intelligence Estimate on Iran](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7125701.stm) says Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003. [/QUOTE] Did you read that article? The issue is uranium enrichment which Iran continues to do. This is the critical step. Two weeks after that article the UN Security Council voted to [sanction Iran](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iran/2006/iran-061223-unsc01.htm) over its enrichment program. Despite facing sanctions and incentives to stop enrichment and accept help for developing peaceful nuclear power help Iran remains belligerent. They hid their nuclear program for 18 years as well. None of this speaks to an honest, non-nuclear weapon program. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/50 "2008-06-10T17:00:39Z")
Well, it certainly makes a bad comparison to Israel’s frank and open approach to the issue of their own pursuit of nuclear weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/51 "2008-06-10T18:18:44Z")
[QUOTE=davidw] Of course, looking at it from the Iranian point of view, Israel has a mighty military, they possess nuclear weapons, and they have a close relationship with the most powerful military in the world. Israel also has shown a willingness and history of invading and attacking nearby countries (something that Iran hasn’t done), and they are trying to get the U.S. to attack Iran. How should Iran respond to that? [/QUOTE] Moreover, the US has troops on two of Iran’s borders, and has a leader who refers to Iran as part of something he calls “the axis of evil.” Not hard to imagine that the Iranians would like to have nukes for _deterrent_ value, rather than as a first-strike weapon. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/52 "2008-06-10T19:04:22Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Moreover, the US has troops on two of Iran’s borders, and has a leader who refers to Iran as part of something he calls “the axis of evil.” Not hard to imagine that the Iranians would like to have nukes for _deterrent_ value, rather than as a first-strike weapon. [/QUOTE] Heh, well all that justification does is make war more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/53 "2008-06-11T02:40:25Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Ahmadinejad doesn’t have control over the millitary, though, so he can’t order the troops to do anything. [/QUOTE] Yes, in theory. But in a region where personal army’s seem to pop up as needed I don’t get any warm and fuzzy’s from this guy. His election was the direct result of cleric intervention. Only candidates that follow their general philosophy are allowed to run. [His most recent foot-in-mouth decree](http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gkqvlPndHPxXMqNzQLCQAPNyxbdQ): “I must announce that the Zionist regime (Israel), with a 60-year record of genocide, plunder, invasion and betrayal is about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene,” Ahmadinejad said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/54 "2008-06-11T02:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] Moreover, the US has troops on two of Iran’s borders, and has a leader who refers to Iran as part of something he calls “the axis of evil.” Not hard to imagine that the Iranians would like to have nukes for _deterrent_ value, rather than as a first-strike weapon. [/QUOTE] Yah, they would never give Hezbollah rockets or anything like that. The Iranian funded group wants Western government out of Lebanon and Israel dead. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/55 "2008-06-11T02:46:22Z")
For the life of me, I don’t know why people can see stuff like that, and yet still accuse Israel of being the one rattling the saber. Folks love to whine about how they hate being accused of being anti-Semitic when they have blatant bias against Israel seemingly for no other reason than that it’s Israel, but frankly in some cases I don’t see how it could be anything else. You’d have to be brain-dead not to see the threat to Israel here. Has one of Israel’s leaders ever stated his intention or desire to have an entire country wiped off the map? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/56 "2008-06-11T03:49:10Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Folks love to whine about how they hate being accused of being anti-Semitic when they have blatant bias against Israel seemingly for no other reason than that it’s Israel, but frankly in some cases I don’t see how it could be anything else. [/QUOTE] Despicable _ad hominem_ argument, and utterly unresponsive to the point being made. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/57 "2008-06-11T04:29:10Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] For the life of me, I don’t know why people can see stuff like that, and yet still accuse Israel of being the one rattling the saber. Folks love to whine about how they hate being accused of being anti-Semitic when they have blatant bias against Israel seemingly for no other reason than that it’s Israel, but frankly in some cases I don’t see how it could be anything else. [/QUOTE] Yes, we say that you’re a belligerent nation with vast armaments and nuclear capabilities because you’re all Jews. That’s it. But hey, that’s ok, because the other countries keep saying stuff about how they’d totally kick your ass if they had [more than a fucken hundredth of you and your ally’s military budget](http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Gb32NKWYsxwJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures+iran+military+budget+wiki&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=opera). ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/58 "2008-06-11T04:30:21Z")
Well then why don’t you tell me, why, when the leader of the damn country has said in his own words that he wants to destroy Israel, do you insist that it’s for “deterrent” purposes? ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/59 "2008-06-11T04:30:37Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] For the life of me, I don’t know why people can see stuff like that, and yet still accuse Israel of being the one rattling the saber. Folks love to whine about how they hate being accused of being anti-Semitic when they have blatant bias against Israel seemingly for no other reason than that it’s Israel, but frankly in some cases I don’t see how it could be anything else. [/QUOTE] Yes, we say that you’re a belligerent nation with vast armaments and nuclear capabilities because you’re all Jews. That’s it. But hey, that’s ok, because the other countries keep saying stuff about how they’d totally kick your ass if they had more than a [fucken hundredth](http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Gb32NKWYsxwJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures+iran+military+budget+wiki&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=opera) of you and your ally’s military budget. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/60 "2008-06-11T04:34:33Z")
Belligerent? How, on God’s green earth, can Israel be more belligerent than a nation whose leader says _he wants another country to be destroyed?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104.md?page=4)