# Is Israeli saber rattling toward Iran serious or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 7, 2008, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104 "2008-06-07T05:06:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/61 "2008-06-11T04:41:45Z")
As you probably already know, there is some question as to the translation of the Dreaded Threat. Now, I have little Latin, no Greek, and squat Arabic, so I cannot offer a definitive opinion, but there is enough “out there” to give me pause. And just as I pointed out upstream, Russia threatened to “bury” us. There was a long history of subterfuge and deceit between us. They supplied arms and training to regimes actively killing our soldiers. Oh, and just to top it off: we’re talking H-bombs, which make A-bombs look like Nerf balls. And yet, somehow, perhaps by the grace of the Goddess, we managed not to annihiliate each other. Personally, I think that’s a positive result. May I make so bold as to recommend it? See, what we are saying is: Give peace a chance. Sorry if we seem tiresome and/or naive on the subject, but we are in dead earnest. In a manner of speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/62 "2008-06-11T04:49:05Z")
The difference is that the leaders of Russia didn’t believe in a religion that mandated the destruction of America. Iran’s leader seems to genuinely believe that Israel should be destroyed, not for mere political purposes but because it is God’s will. I’m sure he would have no problem at all if his entire nation’s population were nuked in response to the Iranian destruction of Israel - they would all be martyrs for the cause, in his eyes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/63 "2008-06-11T04:55:42Z")
Then why hasn’t he already done so? If, as you seem to imply, he is beyond all reason and dissuasion, and cannot be deterrred by the same rational approaches we used with the Soviets…why hasn’t he simply launched an attack anyway? Whats holding him back, if he’s as bloodthirsty as you say? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/64 "2008-06-11T05:00:16Z")
Well, he doesn’t have the nuclear bombs yet. He’s working on it. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/65 "2008-06-11T05:49:45Z")
When talking about Ahmadinejad’s infamous remark, it helps to look at the broader context, as sketched out in the Wikipedia article: > [@Ahmadinejad](#): > > Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Ahmadinejad also claimed in the speech that the issue with Palestine would be over "the day that all refugees return to their homes [and] a democratic government elected by the people comes to power… > [Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel#2005_.22World_Without_Zionism.22_speech) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/66 "2008-06-11T07:18:00Z")
It’s unclear to me how Israel intends to attack Iran. It’s out of range of it’s fighter jets, meaning that any attack will requiring refueling. The problem is that this will have to occur with the permission of Iraq, Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. I can’t see any way that those countries will give that permission. Any ideas on how Israel would actually attack Iran? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/67 "2008-06-11T09:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] The difference is that the leaders of Russia didn’t believe in a religion that mandated the destruction of America. [/QUOTE] Nor does Iran’s. Unless you have a cite that says the destruction of Israel is a tenet of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/68 "2008-06-11T10:50:22Z")
[QUOTE=treis] It’s unclear to me how Israel intends to attack Iran. It’s out of range of it’s fighter jets, meaning that any attack will requiring refueling. [/QUOTE] Well, it is and it isn’t within range. If the planes fly at a high altitude, it’s well within range. Of course, flying at altitude means that they’ll be spotted very early. If they fly at very low level, they’ll escape Iranian radar but need to refuel. Hmm… maybe they intend to sneak in underneath a 747 or similar? ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/69 "2008-06-11T11:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Yes, in theory. But in a region where personal army’s seem to pop up as needed I don’t get any warm and fuzzy’s from this guy. [/QUOTE] So, what, Israel needs to attack Iran because Ahmadinejad may form a personal army and attack Israel with it? That’s the big threat? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/70 "2008-06-11T14:59:30Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Well then why don’t you tell me, why, when the leader of the damn country has said in his own words that he wants to destroy Israel, do you insist that it’s for “deterrent” purposes? [/QUOTE] Because I know the definition of “rhetoric.” And because a nuclear strike on Israel by Iran would be suicidal. And because I am confident the Iranians are not suicidal. Look; it is not “anti-semitic” to try to understand Iran’s perspective. George Bush labeled three nations as members of the so-called “Axis of Evil”: Iraq, North Korea and Iran. Iraq, which had no nuclear weapons, was quickly invaded. North Korea, which _does_ have nuclear weapons, was not. Instead, North Korea got food supplies and negotiations. What lesson should Iran’s leadership draw from this? Now Iran finds itself with US troops on two borders, and at least one presidential candidate “joking” that he wants to “bomb, bomb Iran.” (Maybe just more rhetoric, but you certainly seem to take rhetoric seriously. Should you be surprised when Iran does?) Would the US, or Israel, bomb Iran if it had nuclear weapons with which to retaliate? Nope. Iran, no doubt, sees the deterrent value of these weapons. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/71 "2008-06-11T15:48:44Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] What are you supposed to do when a country whose government announces its intent to erase your country from the map is close to getting nuclear weapons? Seriously, what’s the alternative here? [/QUOTE] Not repeating right-wing lies for one thing. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/72 "2008-06-11T16:34:33Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] The difference is that the leaders of Russia didn’t believe in a religion that mandated the destruction of America. Iran’s leader seems to genuinely believe that Israel should be destroyed, not for mere political purposes but because it is God’s will. I’m sure he would have no problem at all if his entire nation’s population were nuked in response to the Iranian destruction of Israel - they would all be martyrs for the cause, in his eyes. [/QUOTE] [Ahmadinejad is not the leader.](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1185293,00.html) Iran’s leader is Ayatollah Ali Khameini: \*As the Bush administration consistently points out, Iran is ultimately run by unelected, clerical leaders, and Ahmadinejad is not one of them. President Bush’s opposite number in Iraq is really the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini. Khameini makes the final decision on all matters of security and foreign policy — including and especially the nuclear issue — although he typically abides by the consensus of the National Security Council. The Council is led by Ali Larijani, appointed by and answerable to the Supreme Leader, and a man who also ran for president against Ahmadinejad. It is Larijani rather than Ahmadinejad who is managing the negotiations over the nuclear program. Ahmadinejad has only one vote — out of around a dozen — on the Security Council. So as much as he rattles his saber at the West, the President is in no position to act on any of this threats. He has to lobby for his position within a power structure in which his is not the dominant voice. And while Ahmadinejad thunders against compromise, [Larijani and other elements of the regime have made clear that Iran still seeks a deal](http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/791/re6.htm) , preferably in direct face-to-face talks with Washington.\* [I’d recommend reading this for a fuller picture of the Iranian political situation](http://tonykaron.com/2005/11/03/the-clerico-kremlinology-of-irans-israel-threat/) ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/73 "2008-06-11T16:40:50Z")
Sorry, that link is a little out of date. Larijani is no longer the head of the National Security Council. He resigned in October. He is now speaker of the Parliament. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/74 "2008-06-11T16:56:23Z")
[More on the confused state of Iran’s nuclear position](http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IJ23Ak03.html) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/75 "2008-06-11T17:17:07Z")
[QUOTE=davidw] So, what, Israel needs to attack Iran because Ahmadinejad may form a personal army and attack Israel with it? That’s the big threat? [/QUOTE] When you’re the PRESIDENT of a country and you continuously talk about wiping out another country that’s not a “so what”. That’s a threat. Lets look at that reality of that threat from the perspective of intent. Iran directly funds Hezbollah who in turn launched rockets into Israel a year ago. Not 1 rocket, not a hundred rockets, THOUSANDS of rockets. That would qualify as an act of war by any standard. This is made worse by the fact that Hezbollah is trying to take over the government of Lebanon. Ahmadinejad is only a couple of key military people away from wielding power. If the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei were to have an accident than a vacuum is created which will be filled by someone with a plan that fits religious dogma. Take Ahmadinejad’s belief that the 12th Imam’s arrival is imminent and you have an excuse to build an elite secrete police to make things happen. All that’s necessary is a fall guy to take the blame for a bad economy or the general evils of the world. Let’s recap: Articulate charismatic leader who hates Jews Country based on fundamental religion Well funded terrorist wing that has attacked Israel (Satan). Single religious leader surrounded by a council Economic problems Change the word Hezbollah to “Secret Police” and you’ve got the potential for a Hitler-style coup complete with Jews. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/76 "2008-06-11T17:24:01Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] When you’re the PRESIDENT of a country and you continuously talk about wiping out another country that’s not a “so what”. That’s a threat. … [/QUOTE] And what is it when the President of Israel publicly urges the President of the US to attack a third nation? War with Iran will not make Israel more secure, but less so. Gradually and grudgingly, the Islamic world is coming to accept the existence of Israel. You can measure the safety of Israel by the number of its sworn enemies, which are fewer now than before. War will not eliminate Israel’s enemies, it will multiply them. Read the instructions of the packet of dragon’s teeth: Do Not Sow. ---
**Author:** ![puppygod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@puppygod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puppygod)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/77 "2008-06-11T17:25:30Z")
[QUOTE=treis] It’s unclear to me how Israel intends to attack Iran. It’s out of range of it’s fighter jets, meaning that any attack will requiring refueling. The problem is that this will have to occur with the permission of Iraq, Turkey, or Saudi Arabia. I can’t see any way that those countries will give that permission. Any ideas on how Israel would actually attack Iran? [/QUOTE] Custom-rigged unmanned plane fitted with extra fuel tanks and couple of bunker-buster bombs, applied kamikaze-style maybe? At least it’s how I would do it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/78 "2008-06-11T17:54:23Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] And what is it when the President of Israel publicly urges the President of the US to attack a third nation? War with Iran will not make Israel more secure, but less so. Gradually and grudgingly, the Islamic world is coming to accept the existence of Israel. You can measure the safety of Israel by the number of its sworn enemies, which are fewer now than before. War will not eliminate Israel’s enemies, it will multiply them. Read the instructions of the packet of dragon’s teeth: Do Not Sow. [/QUOTE] But we’re not talking about war. We’re talking about Israel destroying a nuclear facility. And if they managed to capture any of Hezbollah’s rockets that could just return them to their rightful owners. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/79 "2008-06-11T17:55:37Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] When you’re the PRESIDENT of a country and you continuously talk about wiping out another country that’s not a “so what”. That’s a threat. [/QUOTE] And I’d like to point out again that the president is not the one in control. [QUOTE=Magiver] Lets look at that reality of that threat from the perspective of intent. Iran directly funds Hezbollah who in turn launched rockets into Israel a year ago. Not 1 rocket, not a hundred rockets, THOUSANDS of rockets. That would qualify as an act of war by any standard. This is made worse by the fact that Hezbollah is trying to take over the government of Lebanon. [/QUOTE] If Israel didn’t attack Iran then, why should they now, after the cease-fire in Lebanon? [QUOTE=Magiver] Ahmadinejad is only a couple of key military people away from wielding power. If the Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei were to have an accident than a vacuum is created which will be filled by someone with a plan that fits religious dogma. Take Ahmadinejad’s belief that the 12th Imam’s arrival is imminent and you have an excuse to build an elite secrete police to make things happen. All that’s necessary is a fall guy to take the blame for a bad economy or the general evils of the world. [/QUOTE] So Israel should attack Iran because Khamenei might have an “accident,” then Ahmadinejad might step into the power vacuum, vanquish his rivals, and use Hezbollah members as a secret police force to consolidate power? The reasoning for an Israeli attack is becoming more and more baroque. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104/80 "2008-06-11T20:20:05Z")
[QUOTE=davidw] And I’d like to point out again that the president is not the one in control. [/QUOTE] I’d like to point out that Iran already supports Hezbollah who has attacked Israel. Their actions are in line with the President and parliament’s continued call for the death of Israel. [QUOTE=davidw] If Israel didn’t attack Iran then, why should they now, after the cease-fire in Lebanon? So Israel should attack Iran because Khamenei might have an “accident,” then Ahmadinejad might step into the power vacuum, vanquish his rivals, and use Hezbollah members as a secret police force to consolidate power? The reasoning for an Israeli attack is becoming more and more baroque. [/QUOTE] Israel should defend itself against a country whose President and parliament actively promotes it’s genocide, is developing nuclear weapons, and is funding an army that has actively attacked it with thousands of missiles using ANOTHER country as a battlefield. Do you not understand that Israel was attacked by thousands of missiles? Do you see this as a minor event? and what cease-fire? I wasn’t aware Hezbollah pulled it’s army and weapons out of Lebanon so “cease-fire” is just another word for restocking ammunition. Nothing has changed in this situation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-israeli-saber-rattling-toward-iran-serious-or-not/452104.md?page=5)