# Is it a coincidence that both early 2000s SARS and COVID-19 both came from China? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [March 27, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418 "2020-03-27T13:26:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/1 "2020-03-27T13:26:38Z")
I don’t mean that in the sense of either having been intentional. However, is there something about the China that makes it more like to be the starting point of this type of thing? ---
**Author:** ![wbgreen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wbgreen/32/463_2.png) [@wbgreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wbgreen)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/2 "2020-03-27T13:33:53Z")
Large, crowded population and incredibly unsanitary markets that sell all varieties of live, wild animals for food, which makes it easy for new diseases to jump from animals to humans. [Michael Osterholm explained it on Joe Rogan’s podcast.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-DRhUDK738) ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/3 "2020-03-27T13:41:28Z")
As was mentioned, in China there are live animal markets where a wide range of animals are kept together in unsanitary conditions. Viruses tend to travel between species (bats, pigs, birds, pangolins etc) then into humans. So they mutate. The live animal markets allow viruses to mutate and become novel. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/4 "2020-03-27T13:46:38Z")
From what I’ve read, in central/western China, there are more animals and people living in closer proximity to each other- rural China is still fairly densely populated. And the cultural preference for very fresh meat, means that there are a lot of “wet” markets, i.e. where the animals are live at the market and slaughtered there at point of sale. So there are a lot of other animals living in close proximity, and a lot of people coming in contact with them. And there’s fairly lax sanitation going on out in rural China apparently- not a lot of concern or oversight either. And there are some janky cultural practices involving eating weird meats as well that populate the wet markets with some odd animals. So you have a witch’s brew of animal species living/being stored in close proximity to a LOT of people, and indifferent sanitation on top of all that. That makes conditions ripe for cross-species virus jumps, which is exactly what happens every so often - the 1956 Asian Flu, SARS, H7N9, COVID-19. > **[Why So Many Epidemics Originate in Asia and Africa](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2020-03-04/why-so-many-epidemics-originate-in-asia-and-africa)** > > Most recent pandemics have at least one thing in common: they began in Asia or Africa. The reasons why may surprise you. > **[Opinion | Why Did the Coronavirus Outbreak Start in China? (Published 2020)](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-china-cause.html)** > > Let’s talk about the cultural causes of this epidemic. [https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2020/02/18/why\_do\_new\_disease\_outbreaks\_always\_seem\_to\_start\_in\_china.html](https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2020/02/18/why_do_new_disease_outbreaks_always_seem_to_start_in_china.html) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/5 "2020-03-27T13:53:41Z")
We’re just very lucky that there has not been a ‘Tyson Bird Flu’ or a ‘Hormel Swine Flu’ pandemic that started here. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/6 "2020-03-27T14:05:54Z")
> [@wbgreen](#): > > Large, crowded population and incredibly unsanitary markets that sell all varieties of live, wild animals for food, which makes it easy for new diseases to jump from animals to humans. > > [Michael Osterholm explained it on Joe Rogan’s podcast.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-DRhUDK738) Reading the list of animals, it looks like an Indiana Jones scene. I heard about the Chinese gov’t originally being slow to react/covering it up, is there any truth to that? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/7 "2020-03-27T14:16:55Z")
It might have something to do with 20% of humanity living in China. Also, this isn’t some swine/bird/bat flu. I haven’t heard anything about this being a virus that jumped from an animal, so I see no reason to blame Chinese food habits. Does someone have a cite to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/8 "2020-03-27T14:26:10Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > We’re just very lucky that there has not been a ‘Tyson Bird Flu’ or a ‘Hormel Swine Flu’ pandemic that started here. I take it you never read “The Jungle”. > [@CarnalK](#): > > I haven’t heard anything about this being a virus that jumped from an animal, so I see no reason to blame Chinese food habits. Does someone have a cite to the contrary? It has been associated with a Chinese market that deals with animal products, some of them eaten, though not relevant in this case. This virus seems to be from a bat, but general animal handling practices seem to be relevant. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/9 "2020-03-27T14:30:36Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It might have something to do with 20% of humanity living in China. Also, this isn’t some swine/bird/bat flu. I haven’t heard anything about this being a virus that jumped from an animal, so I see no reason to blame Chinese food habits. Does someone have a cite to the contrary? Actually, there has been a lot of theories that it did jump from animals. Bats have been mentioned. Nothing is proven yet though. Pangolins are being checked currently. [They have a related virus apparently](https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-52048195). From here: [COVID-19 coronavirus epidemic has a natural origin | ScienceDaily](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm) > [@](#): > > But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/10 "2020-03-27T14:32:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It might have something to do with 20% of humanity living in China. Also, this isn’t some swine/bird/bat flu. I haven’t heard anything about this being a virus that jumped from an animal, so I see no reason to blame Chinese food habits. Does someone have a cite to the contrary? Yes. > **[Missing link in coronavirus jump from bats to humans could be pangolins, not...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200326144342.htm)** > > As scientists scramble to learn more about the SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus, two recent studies of the virus' genome reached controversial conclusions: namely, that snakes are intermediate hosts of the new virus, and that a key coronavirus protein shares... There are many many species of bats so there are many coronavirus species in them. Unclear what was the intermediate host this time. Probably not snake. Civet first SARS I think. But not to blame. Mostly lots of people in rural conditions. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/11 "2020-03-27T14:34:32Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I haven’t heard anything about this being a virus that jumped from an animal, so I see no reason to blame Chinese food habits. Does someone have a cite to the contrary? Pretty much every source that isn’t a conspiracy theory claiming it’s artificial. [Scientists in general are assuming it came from animals.](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00548-w) The present main contenders are pangolins and bats. If this thing has a silver lining, it will be shutting down the wildlife trade and exotic animal markets, which are a major factor endangering many wild animal species. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/12 "2020-03-27T14:43:57Z")
[Pangolin Says It Has More Viruses Where That Came From If People Don’t Leave It The Fuck Alone](https://exposingthebiggame.wordpress.com/2020/02/17/pangolin-says-it-has-more-viruses-where-that-came-from-if-people-dont-leave-it-the-fuck-alone/) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/13 "2020-03-27T14:49:11Z")
They are very interesting mammals. I do hope people leave them the hell alone for now on. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/14 "2020-03-27T14:55:09Z")
Huh, now that you guys mention it, I remember bats being mentioned earlier on. Time is stretching, seems like a year ago since this started. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/15 "2020-03-27T14:56:25Z")
Almost 20% of the Earth’s human population live in China, so even if conditions were the same everywhere, there’s a ~20% chance any new disease would come out of China. There are two ongoing pandemics, COVID-19 and HIV/AIDS. Only one of them came out of China. Looking at recent WHO Health Emergencies: - 2009 H1N1 flu from the Americas - Ebola (2014,2018) from Africa - Zika (2016) from the Americas - Polio (2014) - not a new disease (endemic in humans throughout history) ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/16 "2020-03-27T15:16:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Pretty much every source that isn’t a conspiracy theory claiming it’s artificial. [Scientists in general are assuming it came from animals.](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00548-w) The present main contenders are pangolins and bats. My understanding that any particularly obnoxious outbreak starts with a cross-species transmission, simply because any virus with any sort of longevity evolves so it is at most a mild annoyance to its “home” species, since it is in the virus’s best interest to keep its hosts around long-term (i.e. not killed and not incapacitated enough that it’s killed by something else). The outbreaks with a lot of mortality/morbidity are mostly because a virus has mutated just enough to jump species, and the new species is different enough that the virus causes more damage in the new host. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/17 "2020-03-27T15:30:04Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It might have something to do with 20% of humanity living in China. Also, this isn’t some swine/bird/bat flu. I haven’t heard anything about this being a virus that jumped from an animal, so I see no reason to blame Chinese food habits. Does someone have a cite to the contrary? Most human viruses come from animals, in the sense that they remain viable in animal populations and pop up in humans every now and again once there is a new population with no immunity from prior outbreaks. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/18 "2020-03-27T15:52:40Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Pangolin Says It Has More Viruses Where That Came From If People Don’t Leave It The Fuck Alone](https://exposingthebiggame.wordpress.com/2020/02/17/pangolin-says-it-has-more-viruses-where-that-came-from-if-people-dont-leave-it-the-fuck-alone/) Pangolins and bats are carriers of a wide range of pathogens that can rock our world. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/19 "2020-03-27T15:55:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Most human viruses come from animals, in the sense that they remain viable in animal populations and pop up in humans every now and again once there is a new population with no immunity from prior outbreaks. Indeed, that’s what viruses do. They survive, and they survive by jumping species and mutating, not necessarily intending to kill their new hosts, but they end up doing so because hosts have insufficient immunity. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2020, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418/20 "2020-03-27T16:26:06Z")
As a kid growing up, my dad was a general manager of a hotel. As a member of the hospitality industry, he did a lot of international travel. Asia was a particular favorite for him (e.g. he married my step-mother after meeting her in Hong Kong), and enjoyed getting out of cities and into local places. I recall, when I was about 12 (so, 1990ish), he showed me pictures after taking a trip that routed through mainland China. He had arrived at what I now understand to be a ‘wet market’. If I hadn’t seen the pictures, I wouldn’t have believed it. There was no refrigeration; instead, animals were largely available while alive in tanks. I specifically recall snakes in one tub. There was also a picture of a man riding down the street on a bicycle; in the basket behind him was a full sized dog, clearly roasted. Also, he had a picture of a girl selling a bear claw - no, not an éclair, but an actual bear’s claw. So, yeah, the cultural practices inside the rural parts of China are huge vectors for disease. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-coincidence-that-both-early-2000s-sars-and-covid-19-both-came-from-china/850418.md?page=2)