# Is it a road accident ever the fault of the government that maintains the road? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 7, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687 "2015-12-07T06:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/21 "2015-12-07T17:31:29Z")
While the limitations listed by some posters above do exist, the general answer to the question is yes. It is often the fault, at least in part, of the government, and there are lots and lots of cases litigating those issues. > [@Yllaria](#): > > That sounds like incentive to write to them about potholes early and often. I wouldn’t have guessed that they get one free oops. It’s an extension of the broader legal principle that you’re not responsible for being negligent if you didn’t breach some duty by behaving unreasonably under the circumstances. The same way that a store owner can’t be liable for a slip and fall in a puddle of soda that was spilled seconds before somebody slipped in it, because they had no way to reasonably find out about and clean up a spill in a couple of seconds, a transportation authority can’t be liable for a defect in the road that causes an accident immediately after it develops (unless either one of them was somehow negligent in failing to prevent those things from happening in the first place, I mean). In both cases, there can’t be fault assigned for failure to fix the problem unless you have some way to conclude that they knew the problem existed. If the spill or the pothole had existed for months and months, that could be different, because then you could say a reasonable person would have done some kind of inspection and should have found out about it in that amount of time. But they can’t be liable for every possible defect immediately after the defect occurs, because then they’d basically have to be closed to the public at all times so they could make constant inspections and repairs. It’s not so much that the first person they hurt is free so much as an evidentiary problem caused by the need to prove that they failed to do something they should have done. [QUOTE=bump] Second, and this is the big one, governmental bodies have what’s called “sovereign immunity”, which basically means that they can’t be sued unless they consent to it, i.e. they admit some degree of culpability. Which they’re not likely to do for a pothole or some other thing like that. [/QUOTE] Not so unlikely as you think. In Pennsylvania there are nine statutory exceptions to the state’s immunity from suit; one of them is dangerous conditions created by potholes and sinkholes on Commonwealth highways. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/22 "2015-12-07T17:35:54Z")
Sometimes getting recompensed can be relatively straightforward, though. [Edmonton pothole claims](http://www.edmonton.ca/transportation/report_requests/pothole-damage-claims.aspx). At least the application process is straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/23 "2015-12-07T19:09:47Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Second, and this is the big one, governmental bodies have what’s called “sovereign immunity”, which basically means that they can’t be sued unless they consent to it, i.e. they admit some degree of culpability. Which they’re not likely to do for a pothole or some other thing like that. As always in legal issues, it is very important to remember that laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. While I’m sure that’s an accurate statement of the law in your jurisdiction, **bump** , it isn’t in Canada. First, municipalities never have sovereign immunity, since they are not part of the Crown. Second, all of the provinces and the federal government have passed laws waiving Crown immunity for ordinary tort claims. They can be sued just like any other party for alleged negligence. There are some special limitation periods for road issues, which **Muffin** mentioned earlier. The most common one is that there is a very short time for you to report the accident to the municipality, if the allegation is that it was caused by disrepair to the road (e.g. you say a really bad pothole damaged your suspension). The reason for this is that the conditions on a road can change pretty quickly as traffic goes over it, and the municipality should be notified quickly so they can go out and inspect the pothole or whatever it is, to see what it looked like close to the time of the accident. ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_blistering_barnacle/32/3386_2.png) [@Blue\_Blistering\_Barnacle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Blistering_Barnacle)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/24 "2015-12-07T19:23:42Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > 15 years ago the highways around metro Detroit were in horrible condition. I was nearly pitched off of my motorcycle when I hit a monster pothole that bottomed out my suspension and badly bent both rims. Two new rims + 2 new tires = $1400. Insurance took care of my damage, but only after a $500 deductible on my part. I dug around and found out that Michigan had a form you could fill out to request reimbursement for damages due to inadequate road maintenance. The catch was that the DOT had to have already known about the problem and not done anything in a reasonable amount of time. The state had not been informed about that specific pothole prior to my encountering it, so they denied my claim, but the important thing to note is that the mechanism for pointing a finger at the state and asking for compensation does indeed exist. There was a radio story (on “This American Life”, IIRC) which described an annual survey of every pothole and sidewalk crack in New York City, to be turned in to the city and notify them of existing conditions. The survey was funded by an association of lawyers; probably less a “good Samaritan” effort, probably more like tee-ing up potential future lawsuits. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/25 "2015-12-07T20:13:46Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Second, and this is the big one, governmental bodies have what’s called “sovereign immunity”, which basically means that they can’t be sued unless they consent to it, i.e. they admit some degree of culpability. Which they’re not likely to do for a pothole or some other thing like that. But ‘sovereign immunity’ doesn’t mean a city gets to pick and choose which lawsuits it accepts. It means that, in the U.S., a city can only be sued in ways set out by the state legislature (since cities, like all local governments, get their power from the state). And – while I can’t speak for all 51 plus – there are more than one state where the state legislature has decided (and duly enacted into law) that municipalities can be sued over poorly maintained roads. ---
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/26 "2015-12-07T20:27:52Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > And – while I can’t speak for all 51 plus – there are more than one state where the state legislature has decided (and duly enacted into law) that municipalities can be sued over poorly maintained roads. Massachusetts is one such state. On the state highways, there are signs posted when entering/leaving towns that say “STATE HIGHWAY BEGINS”, so that you know where the local municipal government’s liability begins and ends. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/27 "2015-12-07T20:29:57Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > Government failure to properly design and maintain roads is an important factor in traffic casualties. > > Road safety engineers consider crashes to be the result of the interactions among three variables: the driver, the vehicle, and the road conditions. But the factor of the built road is, in any given driving _moment_, essentially a constant in the equation, not a variable. It is the driver’s responsibility to adjust his own behavior to the real-world physical situation he faces. We don’t blame the road for curving, when an inattentive driver plows on straight; it doesn’t really make any more sense to blame the road for being rough or wet, when an inattentive driver goes too fast for it. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/28 "2015-12-07T22:17:47Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But the factor of the built road is, in any given driving _moment_, essentially a constant in the equation, not a variable. It is the driver’s responsibility to adjust his own behavior to the real-world physical situation he faces. We don’t blame the road for curving, when an inattentive driver plows on straight; it doesn’t really make any more sense to blame the road for being rough or wet, when an inattentive driver goes too fast for it. There are ways that a road can be variable. Signs can be hit and need to be replaced. Construction can be done without proper warning signs, cones, or barricades. Lights can burn out, which can contribute to accidents. One of my favorite warnings is not to change traffic stripes by painting them black. During a rain, the old stripes can be a visible as the new ones and can be misleading and confusing. Spend the extra buck or two a foot and remove the old stripe. Due to joint and several liability, cities are motivated to keep the roads maintained, the signage and striping in line with the latest manuals, and construction signage correct. We’re advised to drive through construction projects multiple times, and to drive through at night, to be sure that everything is clear. ---
**Author:** ![steatopygia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steatopygia/32/3132_2.png) [@steatopygia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steatopygia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/29 "2015-12-08T00:13:40Z")
How 'bout this case? Clear to me , but maybe not so clear to a jury. > **[Families of teens killed in ‘Ponderosa Jump’ crash file lawsuit](https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/nov/27/families-of-teens-killed-in-ponderosa-jump-crash-f/)** > > The families of two teenage girls who died in a reckless driving accident in Spokane Valley in 2013 have filed a lawsuit alleging negligence by the driver and public officials. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/30 "2015-12-08T00:14:36Z")
Here in NC you can get cash for damage from a pothole. However the catch is that you can only get the money if someone has reported the pothole and it was not fixed after the report. I believe they have a week or so to fix it as well. If it’s reported and a week goes by then you can file a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/31 "2015-12-08T19:51:36Z")
> [@steatopygia](#): > > How 'bout this case? Clear to me , but maybe not so clear to a jury. > > [http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/nov/27/families-of-teens-killed-in-ponderosa-jump-crash-f/](http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/nov/27/families-of-teens-killed-in-ponderosa-jump-crash-f/) It’s not clear to me what the unsafe condition was. It sounds like a road on a hill, and the teen had discovered that they could catch air if they went over it fast enough. But he hit a tree, so maybe there was a curve as well. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/32 "2015-12-08T20:15:15Z")
The kid driver was doing 70 in a posted 25. It’s not the freaking road’s fault, no matter how many hills and curves it might have. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/33 "2015-12-08T20:22:37Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > The kid driver was doing 70 in a posted 25. It’s not the freaking road’s fault, no matter how many hills and curves it might have. Maybe yes, maybe no. > [@](#): > > The families of Freier and Mott also allege that Spokane Valley and Spokane County knew of the dangerous road conditions, and should be held liable for failing to enact safety measures earlier. The summer after the crash, construction crews flattened the road in a project that cost about$25,000. If I own a hotel and some idiot jumps off the balcony on the 25th floor, maybe I’m not liable. If it happens again and again and I take no action, maybe I’m negligent. That’s why we have juries. And, I might add, why we get safety improvements. “Avoiding lawsuits” is another way of saying “avoiding injuries.” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/34 "2015-12-08T21:20:54Z")
The kid got his probationary licence the day before, so a couple of girls hopped in with him while he tried to make it to the jump, but crashed when he tried to race through the curves on a winding road with a 25 mph limit. He never even came close to making it to the jump. Here’s a vid of the site that shows you where he drove, as well as the crest of the hill that he was trying for. (Hill? That gentle slope is a hill?) The dead girls’ parents are suing the boy’s parents and have thrown in the municipality and the county as well. As far as the actions against the municipality and county go, I assume that it would be based on [attractive nuisance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine). I wouldn’t venture a guess as to whether or not it would succeed against the municipality or the county, for American tort law is what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/35 "2015-12-08T21:32:23Z")
Here’s a vid of the site that shows you where he drove, as well as the crest of the hill that he was trying for. (Hill? That gentle slope is a hill?) [Is There Really A So Called "Ponderosa Jump"? - YouTube](https://youtu.be/dT-qIB35Cn4) ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/36 "2015-12-08T23:31:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > But the factor of the built road is, in any given driving _moment_, essentially a constant in the equation, not a variable. It is the driver’s responsibility to adjust his own behavior to the real-world physical situation he faces. We don’t blame the road for curving, when an inattentive driver plows on straight; it doesn’t really make any more sense to blame the road for being rough or wet, when an inattentive driver goes too fast for it. It is the responsibility of a government to design roads that minimize the likelihood and severity of crashes. Putting street signs in the wrong places, allowing signs to be covered up with trees, posting speed limits that are inappropriate - these are all things that contribute to accidents and are not the fault of people on the roads. You can put 100% of the blame on drivers if you like, but the statistics won’t change, and the statistics show that proper engineering makes roads safer and saves lives. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/37 "2015-12-09T01:51:47Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > It is the responsibility of a government to design roads that minimize the likelihood and severity of crashes…proper engineering makes roads safer and saves lives. Sure. But the engineering, or lack, of a given road segment doesn’t generally change in the time it takes you to approach it and drive its length. It is always a driver’s responsibility to be aware of signs and markings, of course, but also to make their own in-the-moment assessments of each situation they drive into. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/38 "2015-12-09T01:55:08Z")
For example, if you’re driving on a lane-striped highway, and you enter a stretch of a couple hundred resurfaced yards with no paint lines yet, it’s not suddenly not-your-fault if you drift into the path of the oncoming traffic. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/39 "2015-12-09T03:59:35Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > For example, if you’re driving on a lane-striped highway, and you enter a stretch of a couple hundred resurfaced yards with no paint lines yet, it’s not suddenly not-your-fault if you drift into the path of the oncoming traffic. Hmm, I feel this is entering argument territory rather than something that can be dealt with in GQ, so I will desist after this post. But, to repeat myself: many crashes are the result of the interactions among three variables: the driver, the vehicle, and the road conditions. Road environments are less safe when markings are absent or unclear, when shoulders are in poor condition, when curves and inclines exceed certain maximums, when there are no barriers or the barriers don’t absorb impact well, when speed limits are either not posted or aren’t appropriate, and so on. The reality is that road agencies can and do identify “black spots” - areas where a lot of crashes occur - figure out what is causing all the crashes, and make improvements. The result? Fewer accidents and less severe casualties. That’s a fact. I am not saying “it is never the driver’s fault when an accident occurs.” I AM saying that it is wrong to assess 100% blame to drivers every single time. A drunk driver who causes a crash? Sure, 100% his fault. A driver who loses control of his car after he runs into unmarked road construction at night in an area of road with no streetlights? Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687/40 "2015-12-09T20:26:56Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > The kid got his probationary licence the day before, so a couple of girls hopped in with him while he tried to make it to the jump, but crashed when he tried to race through the curves on a winding road with a 25 mph limit. He never even came close to making it to the jump. Here’s a vid of the site that shows you where he drove, as well as the crest of the hill that he was trying for. (Hill? That gentle slope is a hill?) > > The dead girls’ parents are suing the boy’s parents and have thrown in the municipality and the county as well. As far as the actions against the municipality and county go, I assume that it would be based on [attractive nuisance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractive_nuisance_doctrine). I wouldn’t venture a guess as to whether or not it would succeed against the municipality or the county, for American tort law is what it is. If they can show that by common practice the curvy roads should have had railings, they might have a shot. But only if the railings were needed at the commonly driven speed (at least in our area you’re out of luck claiming it was good for the posted speed - you’re supposed to know what people are actually driving at). The roads aren’t required to be safe for inexperienced speeders. This sounds like an I’m in Pain and Spreading it Around lawsuit. I don’t see how the boy’s parents are liable, unless they knew he was going to be speeding and gave him the keys anyway. If the girls knew the plan and the newness of his license, they were also showing poor judgement. I really hope the suit does not succeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-a-road-accident-ever-the-fault-of-the-government-that-maintains-the-road/739687.md?page=1)