# Is it actually required to dress like a cartoon character to practice before English courts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771 "2017-12-18T16:41:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/41 "2017-12-19T11:19:01Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > This implies that the Supreme Court had a long tradition of wearing legal dress, but isn’t the Supreme Court itself less than 8 years old? The Judicial Committee of House of Lords which preceeded the UK SC did not wear Coiurt dress either for decades. Its a carryover from there. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/42 "2017-12-19T12:09:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Special _faux_-silk gown and waistcoat with cuffs if you have a QC. How can a waistcoat have cuffs? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/43 "2017-12-19T13:21:34Z")
Previous thread where the issue came up: [What’s a Canadian courtroom like?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=333441) > [@What's a Canadian courtroom like?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-canadian-courtroom-like/320162/5): > > > [@Northern Piper](#): > > > > a long-sleeved black waistcoat > > I’d always thought a waistcoat (weskit) was a vest. How can something with sleeves be a vest? Please cite appropriate statutes and like that. 😃 > [@What's a Canadian courtroom like?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/whats-a-canadian-courtroom-like/320162/6): > > My Lord, > > We would submit that linguistic authorities recognize two different, albeit related, definitions for the noun, “waistcoat.” If Your Lordship would care to refer to Tab 5 of our Book of Authorities - no, My Lord, I believe Your Lordship has picked up my learned friend’s Book of Authorites - ours is the blue Book of Authorities, not the turquoise Book of Authorities - yes, My Lord, that is it - yes, it is rather weighty - sadly, some of your fellow judges have been rather prolix - Tab 5, My Lord - yes, you have it. > > You will note there, My Lord, that the [American Heritage College Dictionary](http://www.bartleby.com/61/98/W0009800.html) gives two definitions for the word “waistcoat” - yes, My Lord it is sometimes pronounced “weskit”, usually by Niles Crane wannabes - no, My Lord, I was not aware you prefer to use that pronunciation - as Your Lordship pleases. > > In any event, we quote two definitions: > > > [@](#): > > > > 1. A garment formerly worn by men under a doublet. 2. Chiefly British A short, sleeveless, collarless garment worn especially over a shirt and often under a suit jacket; a vest. > > Now, while the second definition is the more common meaning, we are dealing here with a matter of considerable antiquity. Your Lordship is doubtless aware that our garb is descended from medieval attire, when gowns or doublets were worn over other layers of clothing. The climate of England was of course permanently inclement, and central heating non-existant. Our long-sleeved under-garment is descended from the long-sleeved waistcoats worn under doublets and other gowns, and is appropriately denominated a “waistcoat.” > > One interesting example of the antiquity of our waistcoat is that unlike waistcoats worn as part of a three piece suit, we button the lowest button. Of course, the lowest button on a waistcoat of a three piece suit is not buttoned, out of deference to a difficulty once experienced by His late Majesty Kind Edward VII, of rather portly frame, who found it impossible to button up the lowest button. Since no-one could be better dressed than His Majesty, of course his courtiers began to leave that button undone, setting a fashion that endures to this day. > > Since our waistcoat predates that modern custom, we of course do not button our lower buttons. We do not bow to the passing fashion fads of such recent provenance - His late Majesty reigned a mere century ago, and there is no guarantee such a whimsical trend will stand the test of time. Only the most portly barristers now would leave their lower button undone - really, My Lord? I was not aware - perhaps I could suggest a subscription to the “Y”? > > In any event, those are our submissions on behalf of our client, My Lord, unless Your Lordship has are any questions. Contempt, My Lord? surely not… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/44 "2017-12-19T13:43:57Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > I like Canada because your Supreme Court dresses like actual Santa Clauses. Only on formal occasions, like a swearing-in or opening of Parliament. Here’s a picture of them: [Judges of the Supreme Court](http://www.scc-csc.ca/judges-juges/index-eng.aspx). They used to wear the red robes when hearing an appeal in a death penalty case, but that hasn’t been needed for over fifty years. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/45 "2017-12-19T16:28:25Z")
The UK Supreme Court might not expect dress-up for hearings, but the judges do have rather grand outfits for special occasions: [https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news\_and\_comment/lady-hale-sworn-in-as-new-president-of-supreme-court#.Wjk9aSWnzqA](https://www.familylaw.co.uk/news_and_comment/lady-hale-sworn-in-as-new-president-of-supreme-court#.Wjk9aSWnzqA) In the lower courts, wigs and formalities can be set aside where children may be involved. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/46 "2017-12-19T20:41:47Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > …The colour red has been linked with the senior judiciary in England and later British colonies for centuries… Including the U.S. in its earliest days - here’s John Jay, first Chief Justice of the United States: [John Jay - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jay#/media/File:John_Jay_(Gilbert_Stuart_portrait).jpg). I’ve seen this actual painting at the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/47 "2017-12-21T02:35:51Z")
So how much does a horsehair wig cost? (I could Google it, but you know.) ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/48 "2017-12-21T02:59:10Z")
I thought kilts were worn primarily as formal dress, and therefore only with a white tie? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/49 "2017-12-21T03:13:56Z")
> [@j666](#): > > I thought kilts were worn primarily as formal dress, and therefore only with a white tie? No. There are many variants on formal dress which do not involve white tie. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/50 "2017-12-21T04:21:16Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > No. There are many variants on formal dress which do not involve white tie. Formal is white tie, informal is black tie, and morning suits are worn between noon and dinner. Business suits are blue or black. Watches are not worn at social events. Men don’t have a hell of a lot of rules to follow, so I don’t think this is too onerous. If you’re wearing a kilt, is should be ceremonial, and therefore white tie and watch-less. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/51 "2017-12-21T05:09:26Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So how much does a horsehair wig cost? (I could Google it, but you know.) The link in post 2 says, “A judge’s full-length wig can cost more than $3,000, while the shorter ones worn by barristers cost more than $500.” ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/52 "2017-12-21T06:30:40Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Formal is white tie, informal is black tie, and morning suits are worn between noon and dinner. > Business suits are blue or black. > Watches are not worn at social events. > Men don’t have a hell of a lot of rules to follow, so I don’t think this is too onerous. > If you’re wearing a kilt, is should be ceremonial, and therefore white tie and watch-less. Black tie, white tie and morning dress are all formal. (And there are still other formal modes, e.g. court dress, but let’s not worry about those.) And they are _certainly_ formal in the sense that a kilt is formal. Kilts can be worn at white tie, black tie and morning dress events, and there are conventions in each case for what should be worn with the kilt. As regards ties, if wearing a kilt to a black tie event, you would generally wear a black tie, but at a white tie event you would wear a white jabot. At a morning dress event a grey tie would be strictly correct, though any solid colour or, if appropriate, regimental-type stripe is probably acceptable, such is the laxity of our age. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/53 "2017-12-21T06:56:30Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So how much does a horsehair wig cost? (I could Google it, but you know.) I paid 400 pounds for a second hand wig. Gown was about 490 Pounds if memory serves. Bands along with collar were another 50. Chambers and sometimes Court offices had spare ones to wearvin I am wearing the bands and gown as I type. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/54 "2017-12-21T08:03:01Z")
We call them “tabs” in Canada, not “bands”. Interesting trivial difference. My robes cost about the same as your estimate. Fortunately, no wig! ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/55 "2017-12-21T15:18:09Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Black tie, white tie and morning dress are all formal. (And there are still other formal modes, e.g. court dress, but let’s not worry about those.)… In an episode of _Downtown Abbey_, the Earl for some reason was unable to come to dinner in the expected white tie and tails, and wore a tux instead. His very traditional mother the Dowager Countess said disapprovingly, “You look as if you’re going to a barbecue!” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/56 "2017-12-21T15:37:39Z")
The way men’s business clothing is trending in the US, the business suit might one day go the way of the wig, surviving only as a relic worn formally in the courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/57 "2017-12-22T01:44:29Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > The way men’s business clothing is trending in the US, the business suit might one day go the way of the wig, surviving only as a relic worn formally in the courtroom. There’s a fairly regular cycle in which one style of formal is superseded by something which at the time is considered informal, but becomes the new formal. The full frock-coat was succeeded by the tail coat, which was considered casual because it was cut for riding on a horse, rather than in a carriage. (The transition from knee-britches and host to trousers occurred at about the same time, and for the same reasons.) The tail-coat in turn was succeeded by the dinner jacket, which had no tails at all so it was convenient for sitting down in. The dinner jacket was succeeded by the lounge suit, which we now call the business suit - a telling change. The business suit is in the course of being succeeded by “office casual”. And so it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/58 "2017-12-22T04:07:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > We call them “tabs” in Canada, not “bands”. Interesting trivial difference. > > … Well, before I thought I had only one, but: 😕 “tabs”? 😕 “bands”? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/59 "2017-12-22T04:09:05Z")
So when Bertie Wooster dons the soup-and-fish, which is he wearing? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/60 "2017-12-22T04:40:22Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > So when Bertie Wooster dons the soup-and-fish, which is he wearing? Gentlemen’s evening wear, as worn to a dinner; most likely black tie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771.md?page=4)