# Is it actually required to dress like a cartoon character to practice before English courts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771 "2017-12-18T16:41:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/61 "2017-12-22T05:16:13Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Gentlemen’s evening wear, as worn to a dinner; most likely black tie. Bertie went to barbecues? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/62 "2017-12-22T05:40:47Z")
I’ve understood it to mean the full top hat,white tie and tails, as for a formal dinner. Black tie was still relatively informal, surely? (Compare and contrast Fred Astaire, and the Dowager Lady Grantham ticking off someone wearing black tie - “Why are you dressed as a waiter?”) ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/63 "2017-12-22T06:13:23Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I’ve understood it to mean the full top hat,white tie and tails, as for a formal dinner. Black tie was still relatively informal, surely? Black tie is always “relatively informal” compared to white tie. But black tie certainly existed in the time in which the Wooster novels are set, and indeed before. Therefore, there were functions to which black tie was worn. And the fact that the short coat often worn with black tie is called a “dinner jacket” gives us a clue as to the kind of functions involved. White tie was worn only to the grandest and most formal functions; black tie to evening functions a degree or two below that. A ball or a dinner dance with a large number of guests, or given by a very high-ranking member of society, would be a white tie function; white tie was also worn to the theatre or the opera. But a dinner with no dancing, especially if it was a smaller function, or associated with a club or society, or a dinner in your own home or the home of a friend, would more likely be black tie. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/64 "2017-12-22T08:05:19Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Well, before I thought I had only one, but: > > 😕 “tabs”? > 😕 “bands”? See the picture at this link to [Harcourts, a robe-maker in Canada](http://www.harcourts.com/legal.php). The tabs/bands are the white strips in place of a tie, falling over the top of the waistcoat. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/65 "2017-12-22T08:40:46Z")
The Court of Appeal of Maryland [still wears](http://www.courts.state.md.us/coappeals/img/coa2013groupphoto.jpg) the tabs/bands, with red robes. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/66 "2017-12-22T10:06:53Z")
Since we seem to have branched out into the historical vagaries of gentlemens’ dress, I thought it worth a mention that Field Marshal Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, a leader of fashion in his time, was refused entry to Almack’s, the most exclusive private social and dancing club in London, when he arrived in trousers (a daytime form of dress) rather than the regulation pantaloons (de rigueur for evening). [https://www.mrporter.com/journal/journal\_issue91/2#1](https://www.mrporter.com/journal/journal_issue91/2#1) ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/67 "2017-12-22T13:05:16Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Well, before I thought I had only one, but: > > 😕 “tabs”? > 😕 “bands”? Known in ecclesiastical circles as “Geneva bands”, indicating a minister/priest is of a Protestant rather than Catholic persuasion. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/68 "2017-12-22T14:57:38Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > …when he arrived in trousers (a daytime form of dress) rather than the regulation pantaloons (de rigueur for evening)… What’s the difference? I always assumed they were synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/69 "2017-12-22T15:37:56Z")
Trousers go to the ankle. Pantaloons end just below the knee, with the gentleman wearing skin-tight stockings to display his calves. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/70 "2017-12-22T15:40:07Z")
Most of these gents are wearing pantaloons. > **[Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_at_the_Signing_of_the_Constitution_of_the_United_States)** > > Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States is a 1940 oil-on-canvas painting by Howard Chandler Christy, depicting the Constitutional Convention signing the U.S. Constitution at Independence Hall in Philadelphia on September 17, 1787. Along with Washington Crossing the Delaware by Emanuel Leutze, the painting is one of the most famous depictions of the early days of the United States. Christy created the painting in April 1940; it is so large (20 by 30 feet or 6.1 by 9.1 metres)... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/71 "2017-12-22T15:43:08Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The Court of Appeal of Maryland [still wears](http://www.courts.state.md.us/coappeals/img/coa2013groupphoto.jpg) the tabs/bands, with red robes. That’s a bit … bright! ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/72 "2017-12-22T17:02:02Z")
Back at home, our last remnants of old school court dressup is that judges wear Spanish-style robes: black open-collared with satin facings, and white lace on the cuffs (but no badges or collars as in Spain, and no distinctions of “rank”: fancier lace or just means you had more money to spend); lawyers and prosecutors had to be robed until around the 1970s or 80s. > [@UDS](#): > > Black tie, white tie and morning dress are all formal. (And there are still other formal modes, e.g. court dress, but let’s not worry about those.) > > And they are _certainly_ formal in the sense that a kilt is formal. Kilts can be worn at white tie, black tie and morning dress events, and there are conventions in each case for what should be worn with the kilt. As regards ties, if wearing a kilt to a black tie event, you would generally wear a black tie, but at a white tie event you would wear a white jabot. At a morning dress event a grey tie would be strictly correct, though any solid colour or, if appropriate, regimental-type stripe is probably acceptable, such is the laxity of our age. I am suitably impressed that a world-spanning empire was assembed by people who minded stuff like this. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/73 "2017-12-22T17:50:28Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Formal is white tie, informal is black tie, and morning suits are worn between noon and dinner. Black tie is indeed formal nowadays, they would note 'white tie" instead of ‘formal wear’ if that is what they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![dofe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/74 "2017-12-22T18:10:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Most of these gents are wearing pantaloons. > > [Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_at_the_Signing_of_the_Constitution_of_the_United_States) Essentially, the American Constitution was drafted by men in shorts 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/75 "2017-12-22T18:31:41Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Trousers go to the ankle. Pantaloons end just below the knee, with the gentleman wearing skin-tight stockings to display his calves. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Most of these gents are wearing pantaloons. > > [Scene at the Signing of the Constitution of the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scene_at_the_Signing_of_the_Constitution_of_the_United_States) Ah, thanks! Never knew that is what those were called. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/76 "2017-12-22T19:23:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Ah, thanks! Never knew that is what those were called. In some circles, those might be called “knickerbockers”, or “knickers”, but British vernacular has sufficiently co-opted at least the latter to mean panties that that usage is rare. > [@dofe](#): > > Essentially, the American Constitution was drafted by men in shorts 😛 Which might explain why it feels rather like the US is on the High Way to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2017, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/77 "2017-12-22T21:20:04Z")
Note as well that pantaloons were more upper class than breaches or knickerbockers. Pantaloons would typically be made of a good quality “superfine” cloth, and could be brightly coloured, like the blue-grey that Ben Franklin is wearing in the picture. Knee breaches could be the workaday wear of labourers and middle class folk, but more durable, made with wool (like tweed). ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/78 "2017-12-23T02:23:20Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > So how much does a horsehair wig cost? (I could Google it, but you know.) Most Australian jurisdictions still wear wigs and gowns at trial level. In Courts of Appeal and the High Court, judges wear robes but no wigs; counsel still wig up, unless counsel come from a state like Victoria which has fully de-wigged. “Everyday” wigs for barristers and judges are short and not uncomfortable (assuming air-conditioning, which has sometimes been problematic to fit efficiently into old historic courthouses). They feel like a well-fitting hat more than anything else, but they do wear with time and perspiration. That patina of age is part of signalling experience to more junior barristers. Full-bottomed wigs are more of a pain. They drape over the shoulders and the front of the chest, and wearing them is a ponderous experience. You can’t casually turn your head to speak to someone because the long wig does not want to turn with you, because of the draping thing I mentioned. You also can’t hear properly because they cover your ears and create a sort of echoing effect that is hard to describe, which is why they are only used on formal occasions. Wigs are not powdered, by the way. When wigs were in general use, they typically needed to be sent out to be re-curled regularly, by hot irons. A firm called Ede and Ravenscroft in London developed a technique of manufacture that made recurling unnecessary, and now they are still the best formal (as opposed to theatrical) wig makers in existence. You send your measurements taken across different parts of your head to them (or visit them in London) and they send you a wig with an impressive hand painted tin with your name on it. When I got my short wig (over 30 years ago now) it cost about $1500. When I got my full bottomed wig (about a dozen years ago) it was nearly $10,000. My late father paid for it as a present; no way could I then afford it otherwise without drastic steps like selling the kids for medical experiments. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/79 "2017-12-23T02:35:19Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > See the picture at this link to [Harcourts, a robe-maker in Canada](http://www.harcourts.com/legal.php). The tabs/bands are the white strips in place of a tie, falling over the top of the waistcoat. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > The Court of Appeal of Maryland [still wears](http://www.courts.state.md.us/coappeals/img/coa2013groupphoto.jpg) the tabs/bands, with red robes. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Known in ecclesiastical circles as “Geneva bands”, indicating a minister/priest is of a Protestant rather than Catholic persuasion. Thanks to you’all. Ta-dah: Wiki “[bands (neckwear](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bands_(neckwear)).)” Which tells ma aka “preaching bands” and “barrister bands.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2017, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771/80 "2017-12-23T04:34:34Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I am suitably impressed that a world-spanning empire was assembed by people who minded stuff like this. An attention to detail will get you far in this world. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-actually-required-to-dress-like-a-cartoon-character-to-practice-before-english-courts/804771.md?page=5)