# Is it all about the demographic shift? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 19, 2022, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337 "2022-03-19T14:39:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![EastUmpqua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eastumpqua/32/6025_2.png) [@EastUmpqua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EastUmpqua)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/61 "2022-03-25T23:49:56Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Yes it is. Pretending race doesn’t exist and isn’t a factor is not going to make this problem go away. Again, as a society we aren’t willing to admit how backwards and unevolved we are, so we are told to just pretend this is all about economics. What do you mean by “pretending race doesn’t exist and isn’t a factor is not going to make this problem go away”? Exactly which problem are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/62 "2022-03-26T02:00:34Z")
The Republicans have devolved into two core principles: bigotry and hypocrisy (IOWARDI). So it indeed is all about race. No matter how many people talk about education, class, or location, when you drill down to the true core differences they are always race-based. It’s no different from claiming the Civil War was about state’s rights rather than slavery. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/63 "2022-03-26T13:32:19Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > Exactly which problem are you referring to? I’m just spitballing here, you understand, and @Wesley_Clark is free to correct me, but I think they just possibly, maybe, _might_ be referring to the problem of "why has U.S. culture become so polarized? " Since that was the problem statement in the OP and all… ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/64 "2022-03-26T14:23:59Z")
> [@EastUmpqua](#): > > Since when is Philadelphia in the midwest? It’s not, but Pittsburgh arguably is. It has more in common with Rust Belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit than it does with the Mid-Atlantic. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/65 "2022-03-26T14:59:50Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > > [@EastUmpqua](#): > > > > Since when is Philadelphia in the midwest? > > It’s not, but Pittsburgh arguably is Nope. Assign Pittsburgh to the mideast. You have to cross the Mississippi to be in the midwest. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/66 "2022-03-26T15:12:55Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > You have to cross the Mississippi to be in the midwest. You can cross the Mississippi to get to Pittsburgh. It just depends on which side you start from. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/67 "2022-03-26T15:15:55Z")
Nah, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois are midwest, as well as Wisconsin and Michigan, all east of the Mississippi River. > **[Midwest Census Region : Midwest Information Office : U.S. Bureau of Labor...](https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/midwest.htm)** Pittsburg isn’t in Ohio, but it’s closer to Ohio than it is to any of the northwestern states, being significantly closer to Columbus than it is the Philadelphia or Washington DC. Even Cincinnati is closer to Pittsburg than Philadelphia, and Indianapolis isn’t much further. It’s not a part of the Midwest Census region, but it shares more culturally with the midwest than with the east or northeast. ---
**Author:** ![BippityBoppityBoo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bippityboppityboo/32/5745_2.png) [@BippityBoppityBoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BippityBoppityBoo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/68 "2022-03-26T15:40:33Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > You can cross the Mississippi to get to Pittsburgh. It just depends on which side you start from Very true. Thank you. Reworded: Pittsburgh is the Mideast. You have to be west of the Mississippi to be in the Midwest. Don’t get me going on the South. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/69 "2022-03-26T15:50:04Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > You have to be west of the Mississippi to be in the Midwest. This is news to me. The Midwest has always included Illinois, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin. I know it doesn’t seem very “west” to a lot of people, but the US has done a lot of growing since its inception. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/70 "2022-03-26T15:54:25Z")
> [@BippityBoppityBoo](#): > > Pittsburgh is the Mideast. Where are you getting these geographic definitions? The Mideast isn’t a well defined census region, like the Midwest is, but any references I find to it do not include Pennsylvania. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/71 "2022-03-26T16:01:29Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > closer to Ohio than it is to any of the northwestern states Way too late to edit… I of course mean northeastern states. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/72 "2022-03-26T16:45:06Z")
Culture is not brightlined and definitely does not conform to state boundaries. New York City culture is not the culture of western New York. Rochester is noted as a friendly, polite, slower-paced city that is often compared to the midwest. Ohio starts in Rochester or something like that. Jamestown, NY - much closer to Rochester than Rochester is to Albany - is 50 miles from Erie, PA, which is 100 miles from Cleveland and they are all midwestern. I have no trouble believing that Pittsburgh is midwestern in a way that Philadelphia is not. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/73 "2022-03-26T17:27:26Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I have no trouble believing that Pittsburgh is midwestern in a way that Philadelphia is not. But another poster just informed us that the midwest is west of the Mississippi. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/74 "2022-03-26T17:49:11Z")
Yes, they did. And posters have posted that they were wrong for saying so. They are wrong for saying so. Not just my opinion. Google “Where is the midwest”. > The Midwestern United States (or Midwest) refers to the north-central states of the United States of America, specifically **Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, Nebraska, North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wisconsin**. It is much, much easier to draw lines along state boundaries than grapple with the subtle changes and individual exceptions outside and in. Most groupings follow the four [Census statistical regions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_the_United_States#Census_Bureau-designated_regions_and_divisions) of Northeast, Midwest, South and West. West Virginia is stuck into the South when doing so. I spent time in southeastern Ohio and my impression was that there was no cultural border between that and neighboring WV. It’s true that the four regions have nine divisions and the Midwest is divided into the East North Central and the West North Central, using the Mississippi as a dividing line. That may be what’s being thought of. Nevertheless, the Northcentral or Midwest as a whole sits astride the Mississippi. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/75 "2022-03-26T18:30:45Z")
OK, let’s get some rules straight here: 1. everything north and east of New York is “New England.” 2. NY, NJ, PA, Delaware, and MD is “the Mid-Atlantic” 3. everything coastal and south of DC is “the South” 4. “The South” also extends as far west as the Mississippi River and as far north as the Ohio River, including Louisiana and Arkansas. 5. “The Midwest” is everything else east of the Mississippi (except WV–no one knows what the fuck that is) and as far west as Kansas and Minnesota. 6. Texas is Texas. 7. The Great Plains is Kansas and points north up to the Canadian border. 8. “The West” is every state with a Rocky Mountain in it, plus as far west as you can go without hitting a state that touches the Pacific. 9. States that touch the Pacific are “The Far West.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/76 "2022-03-26T18:41:51Z")
> [@Roger\_That](#): > > OK, let’s get some rules straight here: > > 1. everything north and east of New York is “New England.” The North Pole is in New England? ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/77 "2022-03-26T18:49:53Z")
Concurring and extending: Back in the day, the **Northwest** territory included all or some of what we now call Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan and Minnesota (that’s why **Northwestern** University is in Illinois (Evanston is east of parts of Kentucky, Tennessee and Alabama)). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/78 "2022-03-26T18:50:26Z")
Santa speaks with a Maine accent (“ah, yup”) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/79 "2022-03-26T19:46:35Z")
And why Case Western Reserve is on Ohio. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2022, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337/80 "2022-03-27T00:09:59Z")
It wishes. But we won’t have it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-all-about-the-demographic-shift/961337.md?page=5)