# Is it anti-Semitic to claim Jews are too loyal to Israel and have too much power in business world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571 "2013-02-27T23:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/21 "2013-02-28T04:00:16Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > And that didn’t cause much confusion until recently, but now it does. With whom, other than among idiots and pedants? It always has and still does refer solely to people who don’t like Jews. And we already have a way to magically create a word to describe somebody who doesn’t like whatever: you tack “anti-” on the front of it. English is a very utilitarian language. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/22 "2013-02-28T04:05:50Z")
**Tony** must really want the OP’s topic _not_ to be discussed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/23 "2013-02-28T04:14:25Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > So I guess it comes down to whether you want to be understood, or be pedantically correct. An intelligent, educated person knows the derivation of the term “Semite,” and knows what the prefix “anti” means. I doubt that one college graduate in a hundred has ever heard of Wilhelm Marr. Actually, the only time I have ever encountered a pundit or speaker claiming that antisemitism meant anything other than anti-Jewish, that pundit or speaker was acting as an antisemite and trying to play semantic games. I do not accuse you of being a member of that group, but there really is no confusion regarding the word except when an antisemite has deliberately used it to include other people speaking Semitic languages. The word has a clear meaning that is used in well over 99% of its applications. There is no need to find synonyms. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/24 "2013-02-28T04:21:14Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > **Tony** must really want the OP’s topic _not_ to be discussed. Well, to be fair Tony has said that no, he doesn’t think or at least “isn’t sure” whether it’s bigoted to claim that “French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France.” It would be interesting to hear his answer to the question whether it was racist or not to think that Japanese-Americans were more loyal to the Japanese Empire than to the US. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/25 "2013-02-28T04:21:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > **Is it anti-Semitic to claim Jews . . .** Tip: To any question that begins that way the answer is probably “yes.” Even if the question concludes with “. . . circumcise their sons?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/26 "2013-02-28T04:27:45Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > **Tony** must really want the OP’s topic _not_ to be discussed. Let’s not speculate on the reasons behind other posters’ comments. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/27 "2013-02-28T04:37:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except by your own admission it’s never been used to describe hatred of a group other than Jews so no, it doesn’t cause any confusion. It causes confusion for me. If I’m reading an old book, I can confidently assume that anti-Semitism refers to racism against Jews. But if I’m reading a current message board, and I see a headline that X has accused Y of anti-Semitism, I don’t know whether X means that Y made a racist statement/action against Jews in general, or that Y criticized a statement by Netanyahu. > [@](#): > > All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. > > Beyond that many insist that the Jews aren’t a race or a nationality. I don’t see why that’s automatically bad. I think it’s good if people think that there is only one race, the human race. And I don’t know of anyone who has considered “Jew” a nationality since ancient times, and it wasn’t technically correct even then. > [@](#): > > You have yet to give a compelling reason why you object to the use of the term. Well, from previous experience with you, I don’t expect that you find anything you disagree with compelling, but in my first post here, I made a good faith effort to clarify that in order to answer your OP, I needed to distinguish between the ethnic and religious aspects of “Jew,” and that “anti-Semitic” was inadequate to do so. The fact that you have derailed your own thread by pouncing on that, rather than on what I considered the substance of my answer to your question, IMO proves my point that the term causes more trouble than it’s worth. > [@](#): > > Is it because you somehow think it make bigotry against Jews somehow unique or worse than bigotry against others? No, it is for the reasons I have already given – failure to distinguish between the ethnic and religious aspects of Jewishness, and because in recent years it has been so often used in regard to criticism of Israeli policies that it is in danger of becoming a caricature of itself — I consider people who talk about anti-Semitism in connection with Israeli politics on a par with those who worry about the US adopting Sharia law. So, I politely answered your question, but you didn’t answer mine: should we have a unique term for racism against each ethnic group? Should black people get angry when I talk about “racism against blacks,” rather than anti-Africanism or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/28 "2013-02-28T04:44:57Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > It causes confusion for me. If I’m reading an old book, I can confidently assume that anti-Semitism refers to racism against Jews. But if I’m reading a current message board, and I see a headline that X has accused Y of anti-Semitism, I don’t know whether X means that Y made a racist statement/action against Jews in general, or that Y criticized a statement by Netanyahu. No, that means that you’re not sure if the term has been misused or not because no reasonable person has ever defined an anti-Semite as anyone who criticized Netanyahu. In fact, were we to take your statement at face value we’d have to think that you honestly believe that Netanyahu’s first two wives are believed by many to be an anti-Semite because both have rather obviously criticized him in extremely strong terms. > [@](#): > > The fact that you have derailed your own thread by pouncing on that, rather than on what I considered the substance of my answer to your question, IMO proves my point that the term causes more trouble than it’s worth. No, I actually shredded your argument by pointing to history. You’ll notice that every other person on this thread has said your argument about “anti-Semite” is silly. Anyway, since you’ve said you’re not sure whether or not it’s anti-Semitic to say that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than France, let me ask you an obvious question. Do you think it is anti-Semitic to think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/29 "2013-02-28T05:19:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, that means that you’re not sure if the term has been misused or not because no reasonable person has ever defined an anti-Semite as anyone who criticized Netanyahu. I didn’t say it was reasonable; I said it occurs frequently. > [@](#): > > In fact, were we to take your statement at face value we’d have to think that you honestly believe that Netanyahu’s first two wives are believed by many to be an anti-Semite because both have rather obviously criticized him in extremely strong terms. And to take your argument at face value, we’d have to think that you honestly believe that it’s quite rare to find unreasonable people on message boards. I have certainly seen people called anti-Semitic for saying exactly the same thing that Israeli politicians who disagree with Bibi have said. > [@](#): > > No, I actually shredded your argument by pointing to history. You’ll notice that every other person on this thread has said your argument about “anti-Semite” is silly. Yeah, it’s kind of sad, because they all seem to be focusing on the Jew-vs-Assyrian aspect of it. You would think that they would realize that something I surrounded with disclaimers like “strictly,” “can be construed,” and “an extreme example” is not a position I am advocating. Every statement I’ve made about the actual IMO misuse of “anti-Semitic” was with regard to equating it to criticism of Israel. > [@](#): > > Anyway, since you’ve said you’re not sure whether or not it’s anti-Semitic to say that French Jews are more loyal to Israel than France, let me ask you an obvious question. > > Do you think it is anti-Semitic to think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the United States. Oh that’s right — your response to my first post in this thread gave no indication that you had read past the first couple paragraphs, where I explained why I didn’t like the term “anti-Semitism,” and you evidently saw red and lept to the keyboard to derail your thread. However, if you can get past the short explanation about my dislike of the term “anti-Semitic,”, you will see that I gave IMO a thoughtful answer to the question you just asked, as my answer did not specify the host country, and works as well for the US as for France. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/30 "2013-02-28T05:24:25Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I didn’t say it was reasonable; I said it occurs frequently. Bullshit. Name a single person who has accused either of Netanyahu’s first two wives of being anti-Semites. > [@](#): > > However, if you can get past the short explanation about my dislike of the term “anti-Semitic,”, you will see that I gave IMO a thoughtful answer to the question you just asked, as my answer did not specify the host country, and works as well for the US as for France. Your answer was lots of things but wasn’t thoughtful. That said, thanks for making it clear that you think there’s nothing anti-Semitic in claiming that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US. Let’s try another. Do you think it’s anti-Semitic to claim that Jews control Hollywood or that Jews control the media? I await your thoughtful response. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/31 "2013-02-28T05:42:52Z")
The Jews have too much power statement is anti-Semitic in my opinion. The first statement “French Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France” is another issue. The framing of the statement is in poor taste and borders on jingoistic. Is loyalty to France or any other nation desirable? Is putting your ancestors homeland before your current residence a negative attribute? The fact that they asked the question says more about the questioner than the respondent. An affirmative response would require further elaboration before I labeled it anti-Semitic. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/32 "2013-02-28T05:47:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bullshit. Name a single person who has accused either of Netanyahu’s first two wives of being anti-Semites. Netanyahu? ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/33 "2013-02-28T05:48:47Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, the only time I have ever encountered a pundit or speaker claiming that antisemitism meant anything other than anti-Jewish, that pundit or speaker was acting as an antisemite and trying to play semantic games. I said almost exactly the same thing about half an hour before you posted. I shouldn’t have allowed Ibn to bait me with his implication that you’d have to be an idiot to not have heard of Wilhelm Marr, but yes, yes, I concede that it was a mistake to even mention that Arabs are Semites, heavily disclaimered though it was. > [@](#): > > I do not accuse you of being a member of that group, but there really is no confusion regarding the word except when an antisemite has deliberately used it to include other people speaking Semitic languages. The word has a clear meaning that is used in well over 99% of its applications. There is no need to find synonyms. I strongly disagree with your 99% figure. Obviously neither of us has read every post on every board about Israel’s political policies, and perhaps you’ve had better luck than I have, but I repeat my claim that it has become common to find people characterizing criticism of Israel’s policies wrt the settlements, or their actions against Palestinians, or their preemptive strikes against other countries, etc., as anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/34 "2013-02-28T05:51:51Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’d respectfully disagree with the first point. Claiming that Catholic Americans are more loyal to the Pope than to the US government is . . . . . . interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/35 "2013-02-28T05:53:40Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The fact that they asked the question says more about the questioner than the respondent. Yes, it shows that the questioner had an adequate understanding of the history of anti-Semitism while people who insist that saying “yes” to the question isn’t anti-Semitic display extreme ignorance of the history of anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/36 "2013-02-28T05:58:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, it shows that the questioner had an adequate understanding of the history of anti-Semitism while people who insist that saying “yes” to the question isn’t anti-Semitic display extreme ignorance of the history of anti-Semitism. What if the respondent was a friend of French Jews who happened to explicitly express their loyalty to Israel over France and this friend respected their position? That wouldn’t meet the criteria of anti-semitism. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/37 "2013-02-28T05:58:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bullshit. Name a single person who has accused either of Netanyahu’s first two wives of being anti-Semites. > [@](#): > > That said, thanks for making it clear that you think there’s nothing anti-Semitic in claiming that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US. While I’m sure that those astonishing misinterpretations of what I wrote are inadvertent, I don’t think there’s any point in continuing when we are clearly not communicating. > [@](#): > > Do you think it’s anti-Semitic to claim that Jews control Hollywood or that Jews control the media? Nor do I understand why you feel entitled to keep asking me questions, while refusing to answer mine. Have a nice evening. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/38 "2013-02-28T06:00:00Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > First, I think “anti-Semitic” is so vague that it’s meaningless. To the contrary, it is extremely specific. There was always a tradition in Christian Europe of hating Jews for religious reasons – the German word for it was _Judenhass_ (“Jew-hate”) – which, at least in theory, a Jew could always escape by converting to Christianity, and reviling Jews as those who crucified Our Lord. But, in 19th-Century Europe, there emerged the very different idea of [antisemitism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Semitism#Etymology) – the idea that Jews are evil, exploitive, non-creative parasites, by their nature, as a matter of genetic heredity which no conversion can correct. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/39 "2013-02-28T06:01:45Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I shouldn’t have allowed Ibn to bait me with his implication that you’d have to be an idiot to not have heard of Wilhelm Marr, Bullshit. I said no such thing nor did I bait you. I said you made a “common misconception” and then ripped your argument to shreds as did several others. Please don’t make personal attacks on me just because I ripped your arguments to shreds. > [@](#): > > but yes, yes, I concede that it was a mistake to even mention that Arabs are Semites, heavily disclaimered though it was. Since you continued on for several posts despite several people ridiculing your argument it is impossible to take this statement seriously. BTW, since you stupidly implied earlier that a common understanding of “anti-Semitism” is “anyone who criticizes Netanyahu” please, once again, produce a single person who has ever accused either of Netanyahu’s first two wives of being anti-Semite. If you were being genuine about your claim that a common understanding of the definition of anti-Semitism is criticism of Netanyahu then producing such evidence should be easy. Otherwise reasonable people would have to believe you made a statement that you can’t back up. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/40 "2013-02-28T06:05:18Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > While I’m sure that those astonishing misinterpretations of what I wrote are inadvertent, I don’t think there’s any point in continuing when we are clearly not communicating. Bullshit. Show me where I misinterpreted you. You stated, or at least strongly implied that many people claim anyone who criticizes Netanyahu is an anti-Semite. Are you going to deny you said that. > [@](#): > > Nor do I understand why you feel entitled to keep asking me questions, while refusing to answer mine. Have a nice evening. Your questions were already answered. Pretending otherwise doesn’t help your case. I’ll take your fleeing as a concession that your argument is weak. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571.md?page=3)