# Is it anti-Semitic to claim Jews are too loyal to Israel and have too much power in business world? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571 "2013-02-27T23:39:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/41 "2013-02-28T06:07:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Is loyalty to France or any other nation desirable? Well . . . no. But neither is loyalty to an international concept of Yisroel. Nor to an international concept of Christendom nor of Dar-al-Islam, for that matter. Loyalty to an international concept of The Proletariat just **might** be desirable, but that’s another discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/42 "2013-02-28T06:13:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What if the respondent was a friend of French Jews who happened to explicitly express their loyalty to Israel over France and this friend respected their position? That wouldn’t meet the criteria of anti-semitism. I think it’s worth drawing the distinction between “Those particular Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France; they told me so.” and “Jews in general are more loyal to Israel than to France.”. The polls mentioned in the OP are about the latter statement, not the former. As for the second poll question, how much power in the business world are Jews supposed to have? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/43 "2013-02-28T06:20:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well . . . no. But neither is loyalty to an international concept of Yisroel. Nor to an international concept of Christendom nor of Dar-al-Islam, for that matter. > > Loyalty to an international concept of The Proletariat just **might** be desirable, but that’s another discussion. If someone chooses to be loyal to Israel over the US that’s fine with me. Likewise if they are loyal to the US over Israel. Suppose I happen to only know a few Jews, and these folks told me that their first loyalty is Israel. I am subsequently surveyed on my opinion of the statement “Most American Jews are loyal to Israel first” and I answer affirmatively because that’s what my experiences dictate, I would be labelled an anti-Semite, no? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/44 "2013-02-28T06:24:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If someone chooses to be loyal to Israel over the US that’s fine with me. Likewise if they are loyal to the US over Israel. Suppose I happen to only know a few Jews, and these folks told me that their first loyalty is Israel. I am subsequently surveyed on my opinion of the statement “Most American Jews are loyal to Israel first” and I answer affirmatively because that’s what my experiences dictate, I would be labelled an anti-Semite, no? At the very least, we’d have to label you stupid. Let it be clear, I’m not calling you stupid. I’m say that if you believed that then yes, you’d be stupid. Now, let me ask you a question. I think it’s bigoted to assume that Muslim Americans like myself are more loyal to the Ummah than to the US. You, presumably think I’m wrong and don’t think it’s bigoted to believe that. Please explain why. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/45 "2013-02-28T06:27:55Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > I think it’s worth drawing the distinction between “Those particular Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France; they told me so.” and “Jews in general are more loyal to Israel than to France.”. The polls mentioned in the OP are about the latter statement, not the former. So respondents should consult the latest survey of French Jews to see where their loyalty lies or just have blind faith that they are as jingoistically pro-French as the next guy? I don’t see anything anti-Semitic, per se, with drawing on personal experiences when answering a survey. Especially since the answer cannot possibly be known for certain by any respondent. > [@](#): > > As for the second poll question, how much power in the business world are Jews supposed to have? If this question is directed at me I already stated my opinion that this was anti Semitic. The word “too” gives it away. If the statement was simply “Jews have a lot of power in business” it would not be antisemitic in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/46 "2013-02-28T06:31:04Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So respondents should consult the latest survey of French Jews to see where their loyalty lies or just have blind faith that they are as jingoistically pro-French as the next guy? I don’t see anything anti-Semitic, per se, with drawing on personal experiences when answering a survey. Especially since the answer cannot possibly be known for certain by any respondent. > > If this question is directed at me I already stated my opinion that this was anti Semitic. The word “too” gives it away. If the statement was simply “Jews have a lot of power in business” it would not be antisemitic in my opinion. Ok, then let’s ask you the obvious question. Do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US? Don’t worry, if the answer is “yes” we won’t think you’re an anti-Semite. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/47 "2013-02-28T06:33:00Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > At the very least, we’d have to label you stupid. > > Let it be clear, I’m not calling you stupid. I’m say that if you believed that then yes, you’d be stupid. > > Now, let me ask you a question. > > I think it’s bigoted to assume that Muslim Americans like myself are more loyal to the Ummah than to the US. > > You, presumably think I’m wrong and don’t think it’s bigoted to believe that. > > Please explain why. > > Thanks. Your presumption isn’t warranted. It is bigoted to _assume_ Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah. It is not bigoted if, based on personal acquaintance with Muslim Americans I deduce that “Most Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah”. Though I would refrain from answering such a question due to lack of information on either side. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/48 "2013-02-28T06:39:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Your presumption isn’t warranted. It is bigoted to _assume_ Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah. It is not bigoted if, based on personal acquaintance with Muslim Americans I deduce that “Most Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah”. Though I would refrain from answering such a question due to lack of information on either side. No, people who think that Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah than to the US are expressing a belief that is both bigoted and stupid. Believing otherwise is moronic. Now, once again, do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the US? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/49 "2013-02-28T06:40:16Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, then let’s ask you the obvious question. > > Do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US? > > Don’t worry, if the answer is “yes” we won’t think you’re an anti-Semite. I would refrain from answering that question because I don’t have enough information. I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying either “yes” or “no”. That being said, if I happened to meet a Jew who expressed his loyalty to Israel over the US, I wouldn’t cast judgement on him in the slightest. Jews are free to be loyal to whoever or whatever they want. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/50 "2013-02-28T06:44:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, people who think that Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah than to the US are expressing a belief that is both bigoted and stupid. > > Believing otherwise is moronic. > > Now, once again, do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than to the US? I am not expressing that belief but I disagree that everyone who does so is automatically bigoted and stupid for reasons that I already outlined. Is automatically assuming Muslim Americans are more loyal to the US (without any information on the topic) stupid as well? I believe it is. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/51 "2013-02-28T06:46:37Z")
Before getting to whether or not the claim is anti-Semitic, I’d have to be convinced it wasn’t utterly false, because it kinda strikes me so and if that’s the case, further analysis is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/52 "2013-02-28T06:50:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I am not expressing that belief but I disagree that everyone who does so is automatically bigoted and stupid for reasons that I already outlined. Except the question was whether the beliefs are bigoted not whether the people who hold them are bigots. Beyond that, give your opinion based on your experience. Do you think that Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah than to the US? Do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/53 "2013-02-28T06:52:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Before getting to whether or not the claim is anti-Semitic, I’d have to be convinced it wasn’t utterly false, because it kinda strikes me so and if that’s the case, further analysis is moot. Which claim are you not sure is false? The idea that French/American/British Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France/UK/US or the idea that Jews have too much power in the business community? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/54 "2013-02-28T06:56:01Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except the question was whether the beliefs are bigoted not whether the people who hold them are bigots. If the response is informed by personal experience it may not be bigoted. It could be wrong, but it’s being false doesn’t make it bigoted, it makes it uninformed. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/55 "2013-02-28T07:03:46Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Bullshit. > > Show me where I misinterpreted you. > > You stated, or at least strongly implied that many people claim anyone who criticizes Netanyahu is an anti-Semite. > > Are you going to deny you said that. Yes, of course I deny it. You are conflating two completely different statements to produce a gross distortion. In one post I said that it was becoming common to equate criticism of Israeli policies with anti-Semitism. In another, I said that I had seen people called anti-Semitic for saying exactly the same thing that Israeli politicians who disagree with Netanyahu have said. I never stated or implied that everyone who criticizes Netanyahu was called anti-Semitic, let alone by “many people,” and let alone in a sweeping statement that takes in all future criticisms of any kind, rather than specific criticisms on specific occasions. And nobody mentioned Bibi’s ex-wives but you. > [@](#): > > Your questions were already answered. Pretending otherwise doesn’t help your case. I’ll take your fleeing as a concession that your argument is weak. It would be more accurate to say that my staying here is strong evidence that my willpower is weak. But the more abusive you get, the more fascinating it becomes. You’ve already dropped a couple “bullshits” and a “stupidly” on me, and I can’t wait to see what’s next. At any rate, I asked you in two different posts whether we should have a unique term for racism for each ethnicity, and I don’t see where you answered me. But since you don’t want to answer that, I have a new question for you. What is the ratio of bullshit to stupidity in this statement: > [@](#): > > That said, thanks for making it clear that you think there’s nothing anti-Semitic in claiming that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US. in response to my statement that it would be racist to make that claim regarding Jews as an ethnic group, or to make it regarding religious Jews of any ethnicity after being shown proof that it was false? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/56 "2013-02-28T07:05:08Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Which claim are you not sure is false? > > The idea that French/American/British Jews are more loyal to Israel than to France/UK/US or the idea that Jews have too much power in the business community? Both (though to be clear, I wanted to be shown the claims _weren’t_ false before proceeding to further analysis). Seriously, what’s the evidence for either? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/57 "2013-02-28T07:11:50Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except the question was whether the beliefs are bigoted not whether the people who hold them are bigots. > > Beyond that, give your opinion based on your experience. > > Do you think that Muslim Americans are more loyal to the Ummah than to the US? > > Do you think that American Jews are more loyal to Israel than the US? > > Thanks. I don’t know the answer to either one ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/58 "2013-02-28T07:15:27Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Both (though to be clear, I wanted to be shown the claims _weren’t_ false before proceeding to further analysis). Seriously, what’s the evidence for either? The second statement is an opinion. If the first were shown to be true through convincing evidence, a judgement on whether or not the respondent was antisemitic could still not be made. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/59 "2013-02-28T15:52:48Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’d respectfully disagree with the first point. Claiming that Catholic Americans are more loyal to the Pope than to the US government is bigotry and so is making similar comments about Jews. Well first of all, you can’t really compare the Catholic Church, a transnational set of principles, to Israel, a foreign nation. American Catholics don’t feel loyalty to the Vatican City State - an entity which was only founded in 1929 - but to their religion, which is spiritual not geographic. But anyhow, I don’t see why it should be “bigotry” to say that Catholics are more loyal to their religion than to their secular government. In fact I’d venture to say that the very definition of religion might be “That which people revere more than civil authority”. I’m not a Catholic myself, but I am a Christian, and if the U.S. government ever asked me to do something contrary to Christianity, you’d better believe me that I’d tell the U.S. government to go to hell, in the literal sense of the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571/60 "2013-02-28T16:14:06Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > But anyhow, I don’t see why it should be “bigotry” to say that Catholics are more loyal to their religion than to their secular government. See JFK. The fear with JFK was that he would take marching orders from the Pope. It was bigoted, and it was wrong. It’s still somewhat reflected in our politics - JFK is, to date, the only non-Protestant POTUS. It’s ameliorated somewhat, though, as the Supreme Court is comprised only of Jews and Catholics - no Protestants - for the first time in history. It’s historically accurate that Catholics were discriminated against in many parts of the US. In the not so distant past, the KKK targeted not only Blacks and minorities, but also Jews and Catholics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-anti-semitic-to-claim-jews-are-too-loyal-to-israel-and-have-too-much-power-in-business-world/651571.md?page=4)