# Is it common for soldiers in big battles to run out of ammo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 30, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884 "2014-03-30T05:45:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/61 "2014-04-01T08:27:15Z")
The real military doesn’t make a distinction between direct and indirect orders. I’ve never heard one, at least. I suppose you could make the argument that indirect orders are the ones that start with “AR” or “FM.” When someone says “a direct order” they imply that they told you to your face what to do, so there is no way you can claim you didn’t know the regulation or didn’t hear the briefing, or whatever other excuse the soldier might come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/62 "2014-04-01T10:02:18Z")
> [@Quintas](#): > > Is it common for soldiers in big battles to run out of ammo Not what you were asking, but, [QUOTE=Russian general Anton Denikin, commander of the Fourth Rifle “Iron” Brigade] Even rifle shells were rationed. Nearly exhausted regiments repulsed one attack after another with bayonets or, in extreme cases, by firing point blank. I watched as the ranks of my brave riflemen diminished, and I experienced despair as I realized my absurd helplessness. [/QUOTE] [http://www.portalus.ru/modules/english\_russia/print.php?subaction=showfull&id=1188913493&archive=&start\_from=&ucat=7&](http://www.portalus.ru/modules/english_russia/print.php?subaction=showfull&id=1188913493&archive=&start_from=&ucat=7&) ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/63 "2014-04-01T10:17:48Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The real military doesn’t make a distinction between direct and indirect orders. I’ve never heard one, at least. I suppose you could make the argument that indirect orders are the ones that start with “AR” or “FM.” > > When someone says “a direct order” they imply that they told you to your face what to do, so there is no way you can claim you didn’t know the regulation or didn’t hear the briefing, or whatever other excuse the soldier might come up with. In the Air Force, a lot of our regs are considered lawful orders (the Air Force Instructions in particular), hence each AFI having a cover letter signed by the SECAF explaining that we’re required to follow what it says. I always assumed the other branches had a similar setup. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/64 "2014-04-01T11:39:46Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The real military doesn’t make a distinction between direct and indirect orders. I’ve never heard one, at least. I suppose you could make the argument that indirect orders are the ones that start with “AR” or “FM.” > > When someone says “a direct order” they imply that they told you to your face what to do, so there is no way you can claim you didn’t know the regulation or didn’t hear the briefing, or whatever other excuse the soldier might come up with. The distinction isn’t between direct orders and regulations, or direct orders and indirect orders (whatever they are). There are direct orders and general orders. General orders are permanent orders establishing policy. They do not have to be specifically issued to each individual by those establishing the order. A direct order is an order from a superior to a subordinate. There are no magic words such as “this is a direct order” needed. As long as the order is lawful it must be followed. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/65 "2014-04-01T11:51:45Z")
In my experience, there’s also a difference between a regular order and “Shut up, stop arguing with me and just do it NOW.” ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/66 "2014-04-01T18:41:53Z")
Another [data point](http://thedonovan.com/archives/CombatLoadPresentation.pdf) for a rifleman’s basic load being 210 rounds of 5.56. The attached .pdf, which was a 2002-2003 DoD logistical study of infantry operations in Afghanistan gives a clue as to why they don’t carry more: look at all of the other crap they have to carry! The basic rifleman’s “fighting load” was found to be 63 pounds. Their approach march load, which is the fighting load + a light rucksack, was almost 96 pounds, and their emergency approach load exceeded 125 pounds. All of the figures were higher if the soldier was a member of a heavy-weapons fire team (e.g., the infamous “poor bastard who had to carry the baseplate”), radioman, or engineer. Not only can they not carry more ammunition, their bodies really can’t hold up under the loads they have to carry now. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/67 "2014-04-01T22:54:32Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > (e.g., the infamous “poor bastard who had to carry the baseplate”). We used to call him the 60mm mortar guy the Ninja Turtle. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2014, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/68 "2014-04-02T02:51:47Z")
Since the current issue M-4s and M-16A4s don’t go to full auto, they’re probably wasting a lot less ammunition then my guys did on full auto. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/69 "2016-12-03T16:26:39Z")
A good two paragraphs from[a good piece in _The Strategy Bridge_](http://thestrategybridge.org/the-bridge/2016/11/28/essays-on-war-mattis), by an aviator who served in 2003 under our new nominee-for-SecDef-who-needs-to-be-approved. The shorthand quantification I found particularly interesting: Logistics was going to be an issue. It was a long way to Baghdad from here, and there were a hell of a lot of guys massing on the border. When [General James] Mattis took the boys into Afghanistan, it took 0.5 short tons (a “short ton” is 2000 pounds even, versus a metric or long ton which is closer to 2200 pounds) per Marine deployed. They were expecting that it will be five times that effort—2.5 short tons per Marine—to get a guy to Baghdad. I remembered that General Krulak, our Commandant in the late 1990s, had made his reputation as a logistics wizard in Desert Storm. Good officers study military history, great officers study logistics. Mattis was a great officer. His “Log Light” configuration for the division was meant to get people north, fast, and not try to shoot our way through every little town on the way. As only he could do, he described it thus: “If you can’t eat it, shoot it, or wear it, don’t bring it.” A note on SDGQ bibliography (which I seem to care about more than most people): A simple Google text search of SD for “logistics AND GQ” brought up, as a subject header no less, “[Army logistic](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546989)s…”, which was about and oddly enough didn’t drift from the topic of how soldiers shit (“just like the CINC” wasn’t an answer though). So this was a better place, but I seem to remember some good longish GQ threads on “the tip of the spear” where this post perhaps could go, but didn’t come up with anything promising. I do care more about this than perhaps necessary, but in the days before personal computers, for starters, I was a professional indexer who tried to make life easier for the researchers going out of their mind chasing stuff down, one of whom I was soon thereafter, and these things die hard. I am now involved in novel database designs so nothing changes, really. And, as an even more personal note where none were asked for to begin with, my mother, may her memory be a blessing, was one of the pioneers in indexing research on technology for the vast services (Dialog, Inspec) in use today. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/70 "2016-12-03T23:53:12Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > There’s always bayonets in any event. I thought the last US bayonet charge was during the Korean war? Marines, I seem to recall. But you are right, bayonets, boot knives and entrenching tools are usable in a pinch. My WW2 vet dad recalled scrounging ammo off bodies in a couple of encounters. Well, they also took food and uniform parts. German winters got a bit nippy. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/71 "2016-12-04T02:34:50Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I thought the last US bayonet charge was during the Korean war? Marines, I seem to recall. Army, actually. [Lewis Millett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Millett) received the Medal of Honor at what was later called [Bayonet Hill](http://www.vfw10216.com/battledescription.htm). > [@](#): > > When it was all over Millett stopped atop the saw-toothed ridge and pumped his bloody rifle up and down, signaling to those below he had conquered Bayonet Hill. After the battle forty-seven enemy dead were counted on the forward slope of the hill; thirty had died as a result of bayonet wounds. On the reverse slope lay another fifty enemy, dead of either bayonet or gunshot wounds. Witnesses estimated another hundred Chinese escaped. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/72 "2016-12-04T03:08:05Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > Since the current issue M-4s and M-16A4s don’t go to full auto, they’re probably wasting a lot less ammunition then my guys did on full auto. The current issue M4 (M4A1) is full-auto. The Army is in the process of replacing all of it’s M4s and M16s with M4A1s. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/73 "2016-12-04T03:27:28Z")
I gather that for rifle ammo the average infantryman carries, it quite seldom happens. How about other types of ammo? Is it common for MGers to run out? .50 cal snipers? Hand grenades? 40mm launched grenades? Shoulder weapons like M72, AT4, RPG-7, Carl Gustaf, SRAW, SMAW? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/74 "2016-12-04T20:19:38Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Asked my friend, who is just out of the USMC. He did a few tours in Iraq and a couple in Afghanistan, left as a SGT. On patrol he would carry 7 mags of 32 rounds each in 5.56 plus 2 mags of 9, when he was issued a pistol and 2 frag grenades. He made nice with the guys in the Armoury and his Lt approved, most guys are not allowed a pistol. > > … Hollywood education again, but somehow I thought every soldier carried a pistol. In movies, e.g., rifle jams/runs out, fumble for pistol–end of _Full Metal Jacke_t (a Private); end of _Private Ryan_ (a Sergeant). When do you get issued one? It reminds me of what something **Alessan** can confirm, or update: in the IDF, e.g., toting one of the mini versions (don’t know the name) of an Uzi was a sign of high rank. (Come to think of it, perhaps I read that here from him). ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/75 "2016-12-04T23:54:51Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > A friend of mine drove ammo trucks in Vietnam. His main job during the war was to take the ammo from the rear up to the front lines where the fighting was. From there it would get unpacked and split up to the various units. > > He said he volunteered for it. To this day he doesn’t understand why he volunteered. He just said they asked for volunteers and for some strange reason he noticed his hand went up in the air. Maybe he just had a finely honed survival instinct. Driving Ammo trucks doesn’t sound safe, but in a situation where the enemy basically have no Air Attack capability and very limited artillery capabilites that’s probably considerably safer than being a front line combat soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/76 "2016-12-05T03:17:13Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Another [data point](http://thedonovan.com/archives/CombatLoadPresentation.pdf) for a rifleman’s basic load being 210 rounds of 5.56. The attached .pdf, which was a 2002-2003 DoD logistical study of infantry operations in Afghanistan gives a clue as to why they don’t carry more: look at all of the other crap they have to carry! The basic rifleman’s “fighting load” was found to be 63 pounds. Their approach march load, which is the fighting load + a light rucksack, was almost 96 pounds, and their emergency approach load exceeded 125 pounds. All of the figures were higher if the soldier was a member of a heavy-weapons fire team (e.g., the infamous “poor bastard who had to carry the baseplate”), radioman, or engineer. > > Not only can they not carry more ammunition, their bodies really can’t hold up under the loads they have to carry now. Probably why the Defense department is heavily involved in robotics; they’d love to have a [robot mule](http://fmclub.asia/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bigdog_1.jpg) available to carry supplies. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/77 "2016-12-05T06:06:54Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Indeed, ‘Lieutenant’ essentially translates as ‘Temporary Placeholder’. Officer 1: “What’s Doonesbury doing over there?” officer 2: “Telling the newbies old war stories about Vietnam, I imagine…” Officer 1: “That should get them in the spirit!” … Newbie: “You mean you shot your own officers??” Doonesbury: “Just the dumb ones. Mostly lieutenants.” ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/78 "2016-12-05T06:35:40Z")
> [@Battle\_Pope](#): > > During the battle for [Mount Tumbledown](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mount_Tumbledown) during the Falklands War, the night attack involved a bayonet charge and some hand-to-hand fighting. Can’t find a cite I don’t think this was an isolated incident. British troops in the Falklands were given with what was then the standard issue of ammunition (based on NATO policy of the time) and it proved to be completely inadequate. There were several cases like this (and other where troops had to scavenge ammunition from dead Argentine troops). It led to a change in British (and NATO policy) IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/79 "2016-12-05T17:19:48Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I thought the last US bayonet charge was during the Korean war? For \*you \*nancies, maybe. Her Majesty’s men still kick it old school [once in a while](https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2185325). Proper geezers, innit ? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884/80 "2016-12-05T21:02:50Z")
There’s a lot of talk here about modern NATO-style infantry. But, since the OP mentioned WWII specifically, it’s worth noting that at least one reason that NATO moved to smaller (therefore lighter) caliber rifle ammo was to allow more ammo to be carried. They wouldn’t have done that if there weren’t many, many situations in WWII where infantry units ran low on ammo and had to retreat/stop advancing. Kind of interesting that the Rangers in Private Ryan were the example, because one thing that veteran/elite troops were typically much better at was fire discipline and not wasting ammo. I believe running out of ammo was occasionally a problem for tanks too (they only carried so many shells of each kind). Clearly, fighter planes faced the issue, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-common-for-soldiers-in-big-battles-to-run-out-of-ammo/684884.md?page=5)