# Is it considered "Fair Use" to copy your CDs but not your DVDs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 31, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399 "2006-01-31T20:54:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/1 "2006-01-31T20:54:15Z")
Is there a legal difference between CDs and DVDs when it comes to making your own personal copy? From what I understand, copying your own CD (for your personal use) is legally OK, but copying your own DVD (for your personal use) is not legally OK. Is this correct? Also, how does this relate to the [“fair use”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._v._Universal_City_Studios) decision from the US Supreme Court > [@](#): > > Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984), also known as the “Betamax case”, was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States which ruled that the making of individual copies of complete television shows for purposes of time-shifting does not constitute copyright infringement, but is fair use. The Court also ruled that the manufacturers of home video recording devices, such as Betamax or other VCRs, cannot be liable for infringement ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/2 "2006-01-31T21:01:16Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > Is there a legal difference between CDs and DVDs when it comes to making your own personal copy? > > From what I understand, copying your own CD (for your personal use) is legally OK, but copying your own DVD (for your personal use) is not legally OK. Is this correct? > > Also, how does this relate to the [“fair use”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Corp._v._Universal_City_Studios) decision from the US Supreme Court I suppose it depends on how you copy the DVDs. Most DVD’s are encrypted. So a straight copy of the DVD should not need to break the encryption. I have never heard of people doing this but now that DVD burners are getting better maybe you can copy a dual layer DVD but I don’t know. Then there is format shifting like copying your CDs to your computer or ipod. To do this with a dvd you have to decrypt them which is probably a violation of the DMCA. Does anyone know if there is case law that explicitly says this is true? I know a number of people who wrote programs to allow you to do this have been pressured to removed them but I don’t know about any case law. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/3 "2006-01-31T21:05:15Z")
No, it’s not fair use to copy a CD for archive purposes; there is no blanket right allowing you to do this. You can copy a CD onto approved media. These are special CDs on which a royalty is paid (much like you can copy onto a cassette because a royalty is paid). Using this does not give you the right to make copies; it merely means that you cannot be sued for infringement if you use approved media (complicated, but it preserves the rights of the copyright holder while allowing the copying). This does not apply to copying to your hard drive, BTW, unless you’re downloading a file from the Internet which grants you this right. So, ultimately, you have no blanket right to copy a CD or a DVD. At this point, there is a way to legally copy a CD to another music CD (but not to a regular CD). Perhaps in the future, the DVD will become approved media, too (I expect it to happen eventually), but until it does, you can’t do it. The “time shifting” rule only applies to capturing a broadcast signal. It never applied to making a copy of a videocassette. You could theoretically “tape” a radio or TV broadcast on a CD/DVD – and probabaly even a hard drive. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/4 "2006-02-03T13:13:20Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > No, it’s not fair use to copy a CD for archive purposes; there is no blanket right allowing you to do this. > > You can copy a CD onto approved media. These are special CDs on which a royalty is paid (much like you can copy onto a cassette because a royalty is paid). Using this does not give you the right to make copies; it merely means that you cannot be sued for infringement if you use approved media (complicated, but it preserves the rights of the copyright holder while allowing the copying). > > This does not apply to copying to your hard drive, BTW, unless you’re downloading a file from the Internet which grants you this right. So, does this mean that it illegal to rip your CD to your hard drive in order to put the mp3’s onto your mp3 player? That would be interesting if true, because it would imply that tens of millions of people are breaking the law in the U.S. > [@](#): > > [21 iTunes sold per iPod – where’s the rest of the music come from?](http://www.boingboing.net/2005/06/14/21_itunes_sold_per_i.html) > > Andru, writing about a great Downhill Battle project, sez, “Very interesting look at the number of songs sold on iTunes versus the number of iPods sold. It does the math and shows what it would look like if you split all purchased songs onto every iPod sold, and how small of a percentage iTunes music is.” ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/5 "2006-02-03T13:33:54Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > So, does this mean that it illegal to rip your CD to your hard drive in order to put the mp3’s onto your mp3 player? > > That would be interesting if true, because it would imply that tens of millions of people are breaking the law in the U.S. Yes, it is. And yes they are. But copyright law is a civil violation, so it’s up to the copyright holders to sue the people doing it. At this point, they are not. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/6 "2006-02-03T13:46:27Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Yes, it is. And yes they are. > > But copyright law is a civil violation, so it’s up to the copyright holders to sue the people doing it. At this point, they are not. From another non-lawyer, I’ll counter with “no,” it’s not illegal, and yes, it is fair use. Fair use isn’t defined anywhere. You have to be sued first, and the definition takes the form of legal precedents. There aren’t any legal precedents that apply to this specific circumstance. People often cite the Betamax case, though. Copyrights are meant to protect the copyright holder. One of the key tests for defense of a copyright infringement is the effect of the alleged infringement on the value of the work. Since it’s for exlusive, personal use, there’s no devaluation. Where’s a real lawyer that can cite precendents one way or the other? ---
**Author:** ![Emerald\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Emerald\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emerald_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/7 "2006-02-03T16:21:35Z")
The situation is actually quite complicated. Here’s what the Electronic Frontier Foundation [has to say](http://www.eff.org/cafe/drmgame/copyright-faq.html): > [@EFF](#): > > Surprisingly, the legal status of “ripping” (making a MP3 format copy of a CD you own), and burning (making a CD-R copy of a CD you own), is not clear-cut. However, many lawyers believe these activities are legal if done for personal, non-commercial uses under the copyright doctrine of “fair use”. > > First, they argue that Congress intended that it would be legal for consumers to make personal noncommercial home recordings of pre-recorded music and music broadcasts, when it passed amendments to the Copyright Act. They point to comments made by Congress in 1971 which specifically addressed the home taping issue. > > Second, many lawyers believe that making a CD-R back-up copy of a CD you already own for your personal use is “fair use”. They also believe that conversion of music on CD to MP3 format or “space-shifting”, for personal, noncommercial use, is analogous to “time-shifting’”, (using a VCR to record copyrighted tv programs for later viewing). The Supreme Court stated that time-shifting was fair use, when done for private noncommercial purposes, in the 1984 Sony Betamax decision ( Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios et al, 464 US 417, 455). A 1999 California Court of Appeals decision in a case brought by the Recording Industry Association of America against Diamond Multimedia, the maker of the Rio MP3 player, supports this view of space shifting. ( R.I.A.A. v. Diamond Multimedia Systems, Inc., 180 F. 3d 1072 at 1079 (9th Circ US Court of Appeals).\* Makes your head spin, don’t it? At least the DMCA is more clear cut. Copying a DVD on a normal home PC involves breaking its encryption(since the file system itself is encrypted), and is thus illegal: > [@DMCA](#): > > Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 > Section 1201 > > § 1201. Circumvention of copyright protection systems > (a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION OF TECHNOLOGICAL MEASURES.— > > (1)(A) No person shall circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a work protected under this title. You might be able to find more threads on this with a search. I hesitated to do so myself since these discusions often include wild, unsupported assertions. \*I know that quote was kind of long for fair use, but it’s the EFF! They’re cool with it I bet! ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/8 "2006-02-03T16:40:47Z")
> [@Emerald Hawk](#): > > At least the DMCA is more clear cut. Copying a DVD on a normal home PC involves breaking its encryption(since the file system itself is encrypted), and is thus illegal: Most of the programs I have seen unencrypt the DVDs. But that is not really needed. I could in theory put the encrypted bits on my PC and only unencrypt them using a standard DVD playing program. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/9 "2006-02-03T16:55:39Z")
> [@gazpacho](#): > > Most of the programs I have seen unencrypt the DVDs. But that is not really needed. I could in theory put the encrypted bits on my PC and only unencrypt them using a standard DVD playing program. The main reason you’d want to unencrypt them other than to view them is to resample them into a more compressed format that doesn’t take 4,000,000,000 bytes or so for a movie. Just like converting CD tracks that take 50-60MB on the CD to 3 or 4MB MP3s. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/10 "2006-02-03T17:34:44Z")
IANYL, none of you are my clients, this isn’t legal advice, yada yada yada, standard disclaimers apply > [@RealityChuck](#): > > > [@Polerius](#): > > > > So, does this mean that it illegal to rip your CD to your hard drive in order to put the mp3’s onto your mp3 player? > > > > That would be interesting if true, because it would imply that tens of millions of people are breaking the law in the U.S. > > Yes, it is. And yes they are. > > But copyright law is a civil violation, so it’s up to the copyright holders to sue the people doing it. At this point, they are not. Right now, as it stands, a (imo, insanely) strict reading of the AHRA (audio home recording act) does not allow ripping CDs to your computer to compress to mp3. However, as **Emerald Hawk** points out, good arguments can be made that a Fair Use exception should/could exist. It just hasn’t been hashed out in court yet. It probably never will because who would sue? Even the RIAA isn’t that stupid. Check out my last posts on the subject, I make clearer arguments which I’m not willing to repost (as I’m surprisingly busy on a Friday). Or, on preview, what **Balthisar** has stated already. Just make sure that the copies are for personal, non-commercial use. Oh, and to be clear and to reiterate **Emerald Hawk** again for doing the leg work, there is no right (Fair Use or not) to backup (archive copies) of DVDs. The purchase price for the DVD is for the medium upon which to access the paid for license right to view. **RealityChuck** let me repeat myself again, as I have in other threads, Copyright Law is also a [criminal law](http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506). ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/11 "2006-02-03T18:07:45Z")
The ablilty to copy for your self was settled with the courts and the VCR industry. The owners of movies and songs are still pushing hard to get laws passed to stop your legal ability to do this. You may normaly make one copy of media. It or the original must remain your property, and someone can’t barrow one to watch while you retain the use of the other. That is the most important clause, and is constantly being broken. That is why movie makers keep trying to get it made illegal to copy the media. I keep my current favorite DVD’s I own on the hard drive for easy playback until I’m sick of it. The latest proposed change would make forms of digital duplicating illegal, leaving only the analog methods available. They government would also have to approve the design of anything capable of playing or storing digital media. The other countries will laugh at the poor American public at that point and pass us by in the dust. Can you immagine our technology in ten years after that. Think of the U.S.S.R. before the country broke up. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/12 "2006-02-03T18:14:57Z")
My comments are for duplibating media, not decrypting. A judge asked the movie industry how when the coyright was done, people would have access to the movie, since it was still illegal to decyrpt it. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-considered-fair-use-to-copy-your-cds-but-not-your-dvds/342399/13 "2006-02-03T19:05:05Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > From another non-lawyer, I’ll counter with “no,” it’s not illegal, and yes, it is fair use. Fair use isn’t defined anywhere. Fair use isn’t “defined,” no, but there are guidelines. [http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107](http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107)