# Is it correct to speak of counterfeit artwork? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022 "2015-05-28T09:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/1 "2015-05-28T09:53:29Z")
Hi I have always thought of counterfeiting as creating a bank note with the attempt to spend the note or otherwise place it in circulation or otherwise making or creating an unauthorized imitation of a genuine article (currency, checks, identity cards, etc.) with the intent to deceive or defraud a third party. For example, counterfeit checks would be checks that were made to look as though they were genuine to be cashed by a bank, business, or individual. I have always thought of forgery as involving false writing, printing, or similar action with the intent to pass off the signature, authorization, or other pretenses of the granting of permission to affect a fraud. A forgery would be taking otherwise genuinely issued checks and printing signatures or other necessary authorizations on a check under the pretense that someone authorized to issue the check had done so. Or in the case of the forgery of artwork, an artists’s name is stolen/co-opted in order to add value to the wrong work. Forgery is an attempt to cash in on such established reputations. Fraudulent intention, either by the artist or by a subsequent owner, is necessary for a work to be a forgery; this distinguishes forgeries from honest copies and merely mistaken attributions. A forger simply paints a work in the style of a famous artist and tries to sell it, often in connivance with a crooked dealer, claiming it is from the hand of the famous artist. I’m looking for a clear legal distinction between forgery and counterfeiting. The links below use the terms interchangeably. That’s doesn’t seem correct to me. I look forward to your feedback. davidmich > **[Artists & Designers - Creators &Tastemakers - Art & Living](https://artandliving.com/)** > > A and L is a global platform to educate on Artists & designers, creators, chefs and luxury brand on how to buy. Come visit us! [http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Man-arrested-for-allegedly-selling-counterfeit-Chihuly-art-204706291.html](http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Man-arrested-for-allegedly-selling-counterfeit-Chihuly-art-204706291.html) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/2 "2015-05-28T13:27:03Z")
This isn’t a _clear_ distinction anyone actually makes in law, as far as I can tell, but IANAL. Art forgery can include falsely signing an original in-the-style-of work, or copying a work wholesale. Are you saying only the former is forgery, and the latter is counterfeit? IMO, counterfeit _is_ synonymous with forged. My preference is to use the former for the action and the latter for the product, but that’s not a rule, just my taste - “counterfeiter” sound inelegant/made-up compared to “forger”, which lines up better with the other professions: “fence”, “burglar”, “crook” , “robber” - Conversely “forgery” sounds crude compared to “counterfeit” and often the _products_ are quite elegant. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/3 "2015-05-28T13:34:09Z")
\*\*Counterfeiting \*\*is usually the term used for something that’s closer to a mass-produced commodity (currency, fashion apparel, DVDs etc.) whereas a \*\*forgery \*\*is usually a one-off, handmade item (like art). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/4 "2015-05-28T13:59:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This isn’t a _clear_ distinction anyone actually makes in law, as far as I can tell, but IANAL. Art forgery can include falsely signing an original in-the-style-of work, or copying a work wholesale. Are you saying only the former is forgery, and the latter is counterfeit? At common law, forgery was making or altering something (generally a writing, though I suppose a painting would qualify) _with intent to defraud_. Copying a famous painting isn’t forgery unless you plan to pass it off as the original. Counterfeiting is more commonly used than forgery to describe the making of fraudulent financial instruments, but I don’t see any reason why the latter term would not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Ornery\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/da6949/32.png) [@Ornery\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ornery_Bob)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/5 "2015-05-28T14:01:01Z")
Legally, a forgery is a false \*\*\*document. * * * Counterfeits are:\* A copy or imitation of something that is intended to be taken as authentic and genuine in order to deceive another.\* ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/6 "2015-05-28T14:42:13Z")
“On Paper” by Nicholas A. Basbanes p. 163 quotes as former CIA agent as distinguishing between “forgery and counterfeiting, making clear in his interview with me that forgery is the making of very persuasive papers that can be taken for the “real thing” while counterfeiting is the replication of another country’s currency, which is an act of war, according to the Geneva Convention. There have nevertheless been instances he acknowledged, in which the agency has made foreign currency, but that, he insisted, has happened generally when hostilities are already underway”…(p. 163) It doesn’t really answer my question in terms of the degree of deception. After all a forgery is a deception on the part of the forger. The intent of the forger is usually to sell the forged artwork or to deceive by forging a signature with the intent or receiving something in return. Counterfeiting from my online research rarely mentions documents or artwork. It usually refers to money or cheques. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/7 "2015-05-28T14:52:03Z")
Note that a forgery might not be a faked copy of an actual item. E.g., a forged will might not be at all like someone’s actual real will. Or maybe there isn’t a real will to begin with. Regarding artwork and mass production, this can happen in cases of art prints. E.g., only a thousand real ones are made but counterfeiters gin up a bunch of fake ones. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/8 "2015-05-28T15:09:06Z")
So opinions vary from 1. action (counterfeiting) and product (forgery) to 2. counterfeiting and forgery being synonymous to finally a 3. forgery as a false document and counterfeit being an imitation/copy intended to look authentic/genuine in order to deceive. Wikipedia > **[Counterfeit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit)** > > To counterfeit means to imitate something authentic, with the intent to steal, destroy, or replace the original, for use in illegal transactions, or otherwise to deceive individuals into believing that the fake is of equal or greater value than the real thing. Counterfeit products are fakes or unauthorized replicas of the real product. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product. The word counterfeit frequently describes ... [Forgery - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgery) (still not very clear on… Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product. The word counterfeit frequently describes both the forgeries of currency and documents, as well as the imitations of clothing, handbags, shoes, pharmaceuticals, aviation and automobile parts, watches, electronics (both parts and finished products), software, works of art, toys, movies.[1] Counterfeit products tend to have fake company logos and brands. In the case of goods, it results in patent infringement or trademark infringement. Counterfeit consumer products have a reputation for being lower quality (sometimes not working at all) and may even include toxic elements. … The counterfeiting of money is usually attacked aggressively by governments worldwide. The counterfeiting of goods is condoned by some governments. Counterfeit paper money is the most popular product counterfeited. A forgery is essentially concerned with a produced or altered object. Where the prime concern of a forgery is less focused on the object itself – what it is worth or what it “proves” – than on a tacit statement of criticism that is revealed by the reactions the object provokes in others, then the larger process is a hoax. In a hoax, a rumor or a genuine object planted in a concocted situation, may substitute for a forged physical object. The similar crime of fraud is the crime of deceiving another, including through the use of objects obtained through forgery. Forgery is one of the techniques of fraud, including identity theft. Forgery is one of the threats addressed by security engineering. I’m not very clear on this sentence. It looks clumsy. “Where the prime concern of a forgery is less focused on the object itself – what it is worth or what it “proves” – than on a tacit statement of criticism that is revealed by the reactions the object provokes in others, then the larger process is a hoax.”??? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/9 "2015-05-28T15:16:38Z")
> [@Ornery\_Bob](#): > > Legally, a forgery is a false \*\*\*document. > > * * * > > Counterfeits are:\* A copy or imitation of something that is intended to be taken as authentic and genuine in order to deceive another.\* This. A meticulous copy of the Mona Lisa passed off as the original is a counterfeit. A painting meticulously made to pass as an unknown L. D. Vinci is a forgery. Hans van Meegeren did not counterfeit Vermeer paintings, he forged them. IMVHO. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/10 "2015-05-28T15:35:40Z")
Thanks Amateur Barbarian. Based on your example of forgery vs. counterfeit which seems to suggest a complete original fabrication(forgery) as opposed to a copy of an original (counterfeit) I found the following use of forgery: > **[Cave of Altamira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_Altamira)** > > The Cave of Altamira (/ˌæltəˈmɪərə/; Spanish: Cueva de Altamira \[ˈkweβa ðe altaˈmiɾa\]) is a cave complex, located near the historic town of Santillana del Mar in Cantabria, Spain. It is renowned for prehistoric cave art featuring charcoal drawings and polychrome paintings of contemporary local fauna and human hands. The earliest paintings were applied during the Upper Paleolithic, around 36,000 years ago. The site was discovered in 1868 by Modesto Cubillas and subsequently studied by Marcelino As... In 1879, amateur archaeologist Marcelino Sanz de Sautuola was led by his eight-year-old daughter María to discover the cave’s drawings.[3] The cave was excavated by Sautuola and archaeologist Juan Vilanova y Piera from the University of Madrid, resulting in a much acclaimed publication in 1880 which interpreted the paintings as Paleolithic in origin. The French specialists, led by Gabriel de Mortillet and Emile Cartailhac, were particularly adamant in rejecting the hypothesis of Sautuola and Piera, and their findings were loudly ridiculed at the 1880 Prehistorical Congress in Lisbon. Due to the supreme artistic quality, and the exceptional state of conservation of the paintings, Sautuola was even accused of forgery. A fellow countryman maintained that the paintings had been produced by a contemporary artist, on Sautuola’s orders. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/11 "2015-05-28T15:57:20Z")
[http://www.financeexpertmiddleeast.com/how-to-detect-counterfeit-currency/](http://www.financeexpertmiddleeast.com/how-to-detect-counterfeit-currency/) There is a big difference between counterfeiting and forgery counterfeiting is making a similar currency in everything from the beginning to the end of the right of the coin traded using Inks, papers, computers, printers. The fraud or the forgery is using a valid currency and counterfeiter makes a change in converting it from a lower-class currency to a currency with a higher category. like converting a dollar to 10 or 100. The weakness of the U.S. currency is essentially because of the similarity of all the dimensions of the US dollars like the ten or twenty or fifty or one hundred dollars they are all on-dimensional and this helps counterfeiters in their fraud operations. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/12 "2015-05-28T18:39:47Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > I’m not very clear on this sentence. It looks clumsy. > > “Where the prime concern of a forgery is less focused on the object itself – what it is worth or what it “proves” – than on a tacit statement of criticism that is revealed by the reactions the object provokes in others, then the larger process is a hoax.”??? It is clumsy, and less than crystal clear, but I read it as saying that the main purpose of a hoax – which might incorporate a forgery – is getting people to fall for it. In other words, a forgery used to perpetrate a hoax isn’t for the purpose of seeing how many dollars one can make, but rather for seeing how many fools one can make. ---
**Author:** ![davidmich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@davidmich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidmich)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/13 "2015-05-29T18:57:04Z")
Thank you all. Very helpful. davidmich ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-correct-to-speak-of-counterfeit-artwork/721022/14 "2015-05-31T03:44:03Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > This. > > A meticulous copy of the Mona Lisa passed off as the original is a counterfeit. > > A painting meticulously made to pass as an unknown L. D. Vinci is a forgery. > > Hans van Meegeren did not counterfeit Vermeer paintings, he forged them. > > IMVHO. You got it. And if a student is simply imitating a famous painter’s work slavishly, in order to gain technique and skills, it is none of the above…it is simply called a “master’s copy.”