# Is it credible that Sen George Allen claims he didn't know about his Jewish ancestry? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 20, 2006, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401 "2006-09-20T12:42:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/21 "2006-09-20T16:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=Smapti] IIRC, John Kerry didn’t find out until April 2004 that he had a Jewish grandfather. [/QUOTE] True. On reflection, my response was colored by my dislike for Allen. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/22 "2006-09-20T17:26:32Z")
I’d believe it. I didn’t find out I was 1/32 Cherokee on my dad’s side until I was 28 and about to get married. I suspect, but don’t know, that my maternal grandfather’s parents were a Protestant/Catholic couple (though, AFAIK, he was raised Lutheran- he certainly was one as an adult). Things like having non-white or Jewish ancestry, or mixed-faith marriages, were considered scandalous until not too long ago in some social circles, and not the sort of thing that some families would want to be known. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/23 "2006-09-20T17:54:27Z")
Of course it’s credible. I didn’t find out that someone I knew most of my life before I graduated high school (city police chief and therefore my dad’s boss) was in fact my grandmother’s half brother. He was 20 years younger than my granny, and she was rather ashamed of the entire situation. I found this out when he died about 2 years ago, which was about a year before my grandmother. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/24 "2006-09-20T18:02:26Z")
Frelling Tralk: > [@](#): > > After doing geneology for almost ten years on my mother’s side of the family, we never knew that there was even a possibility that we had converted Jews in the background. Her maiden name is “Christ” for Pete’s sake. Last week in Wurtzburg we went to the LDS center there and in talking to the volunteer, found out that a particular notation on his marriage record indicated that he was probably a former Jew who changed his name to “Christ” to get rid of his obviously Jewish surname - and that “Christ” was a particularly popular choice for those Jews who did so. I think it all started quite a while ago, with that one Jew changing his last name to Christ…maybe I can remember his first name if I jog my memory a bit… ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/25 "2006-09-20T18:05:42Z")
Not only can I believe it, I can understand it completely. When my grandfather came to the U.S., he changed his name. For whatever reason, he and my grandmother were willing to talk about _her_ family tree, but not his. In fact, most of his children’s questions (and their children, my generation) were answered with some form of “if we’d liked the old country, we would have stayed there.” Maybe my grandfather simply felt that since he had crossed an ocean to start a new life, the old stuff didn’t matter. Maybe he had made some enemies back in the old country and decided keeping his mouth shut was a wise choice. Maybe he was ashamed of his family. He’s dead now, so we’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/26 "2006-09-20T18:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=Anne Neville] I’d believe it. I didn’t find out I was 1/32 Cherokee on my dad’s side until I was 28 and about to get married. [/QUOTE] It’s strange, how prior generations’ issues and prejudices color what information they will pass on, when the next generations don’t care or actually might want to know. My maternal grandmother was illegitimate. She was raised by her biological mother’s older (married) sister and husband, thinking that her biological mother was her aunt. This was pretty common when a young girl got in trouble back in the day – off she’d go on a “trip” with a married sister and the married sister would come back with a baby. I doubt many people were fooled. Anyway, she was not told until she was in her _50s_ and her mother (the one who raised her) was dying that her “aunt” was actually her mother, that she was illegitimate, and that no one knew who her bio father was. The bio mother/ aunt would never say who the father was, not 'til the day she died. Why? Well, the family speculation is that it was because he was Indian, meaning Native American (this was in the Dakotas). Illegitimacy might be okay, but not if your father was an Indian. My mom still shakes her head about how the family would whisper about the mere possibility that there might be an Indian in the family tree, when she and her sibs didn’t give a shit, and _her_ children (my sibs and I) actually would think it was kind of cool. But there was every chance the information could have died when the people who knew it did. I bet that happens all the time. How could the children know if they’re not told? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/27 "2006-09-20T18:10:59Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Frelling Tralk: I think it all started quite a while ago, with that one Jew changing his last name to Christ…maybe I can remember his first name if I jog my memory a bit… [/QUOTE] I think He was Hispanic, wasn’t He? Of course, there was considerable controversy about who His Father was, let alone his grandfather… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/28 "2006-09-20T18:23:53Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] It’s strange, how prior generations’ issues and prejudices color what information they will pass on, when the next generations don’t care or actually might want to know. [/quote] Want to know what’s _really_ strange? Years before I found out I was part Native American, my dad’s family had no problems telling me that we’re related to [Benedict Arnold](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold) (I don’t know if we’re directly descended from him) :dubious: Family secrets are a funny thing… > [@](#): > > But there was every chance the information could have died when the people who knew it did. I bet that happens all the time. How could the children know if they’re not told? If my parents had never told me about our Native American ancestors, I probably never would have known. You wouldn’t know from looking at me, my sister, my dad, or his father (who was 1/8 Cherokee). After I learned that I was part Native American, I realized that that might be why my leg hair is sparse and light, but I really doubt I would have ever guessed just from that. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/29 "2006-09-20T18:57:35Z")
[QUOTE=Smapti] IIRC, John Kerry didn’t find out until April 2004 that he had a Jewish grandfather. [/QUOTE] Yep. His name isn’t even “really” Kerry. His paternal grandfather was an Austrian Jewish Hibernophile named Fritz Kohn who changed his name to Frederick Kohn after the county. His grandmother was too, making Kerry half Jewish. It is quite possible that Allen didn’t know, even if his admission seems very awkward. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/30 "2006-09-20T19:05:25Z")
I might add, Warren G. Harding conceded privately (after the “allegation” was made to hurt him politically) that he might have had some black ancestors, and Winston Churchill was rather proud of the possibility (never proven) that he might have some American Indian blood through his mom, Jenny Jerome. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/31 "2006-09-20T19:24:15Z")
Yeah, funny thing English snobbery & prejudice. My maternal grandfather, who was old enough to have served in the First World War so not that much younger than Churchill, added to his Jewish sounding but English surname “to avoid the risk of antisemitism” yet was happy to claim we may have gypsy blood! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/32 "2006-09-20T19:42:48Z")
I don’t know a thing about any of my great-grandparents. This seems perfectly plausible to me. Not everyone knows much about their ancestry. I personally don’t give a shit. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/33 "2006-09-20T19:42:54Z")
My gut reaction was that no, Allen must have known, that it’d be unreasonable for him to not know that. And then I thought about it… I’m German on both sides, with a little Czech mixed in on my mother’s side. I’ve got no Jewish relatives that I know of, but my father’s (religious conservative hick) family might have covered that sort of thing up- I only recently learned that the man I’ve known as my uncle my whole life is, ya’ know, no blood relation to my grandfather. So it’s not inconcievable that Allen didn’t know, in my mind. His reaction is a little strange, though; he’s pretty defensive. That could just be shock at hearing this for the first time, or it could be something he’s covering up. Color me unconvinced either way. It’s definately possible that he didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/34 "2006-09-20T19:53:17Z")
[QUOTE=astro] …and that his mother kept this fact from him all these years? Being from a family with southern roots (but widely dispersed at this point) it seems that knowing who your ancestors were is pretty important, and if your getting into upper crust territory it’s sometimes a near obsession. I just can’t believe him when he say he leaned this through a newspaper article re his Jewish roots on his mother’s side of the family. [Allen says he embraces his Jewish ancestry Campaign debate brings reaction, demands for clarification](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14913849/) . How indeed, especially for a bunch of nominal bluebloods? [/QUOTE] Aren’t North African Jews called _pied noir_? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/35 "2006-09-20T20:22:06Z")
I’m curious to know if the OP has revised his opinion after reading this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/96bed5/32.png) [@Cat\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Jones)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/36 "2006-09-20T20:29:26Z")
[QUOTE=ouryL] Aren’t North African Jews called _pied noir_? [/QUOTE] Not exactly - as I understand it the pied noir were ethnic Europeans Jews, French mainly who settled in Algeria & other parts of North Africa during colonisation. Most returned to France after independence. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/37 "2006-09-20T21:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=Frelling Tralk] and that “Christ” was a particularly popular choice for those Jews who did so. [/QUOTE] Hey, that’s neat. I have a Christ somewhere in the tree, also from Germany. Bavaria, if I remember correctly and I probably don’t. I’m pretty sure her first name was Wallaburg. Such a shame that name didn’t get passed down. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/38 "2006-09-20T22:03:28Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] My Great-Grandmother, who I knew, & who knew me, may or may not have been a Jew. [/QUOTE] I didn’t know my matrilineal great-grandmother, but she may well have been a Jew. She came to the USA as an orphaned child from somewhere in what is now Germany, and her last name was Hess, which is used by both Christian and Jewish families. Since her daughter was my mother’s mother, I’m ethnically a Jew if Great-Grandma was. However, she was raised Christian by the American family that took her in as a maid and housekeeper. If she knew of (or even suspected) Jewish ancestry, she kept the knowledge/speculation to herself. This article on [Crypto-Judaism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crypto-Jew) may be of interest to readers of this thread. Among members of the so-called [First Families of Virginia,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Families_of_Virginia) accusation of black ancestry was historically deemed “fightin’ words”, but these aristocratic folks weren’t hesitant to acknowledge (or create) descent from the “Indian princess” [Pocahontas.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas#Descendants) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/39 "2006-09-21T00:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] I’ve got no Jewish relatives that I know of, but my father’s (religious conservative hick) family might have covered that sort of thing up- [/quote] That’s another possible reason. I’m sure that some families consider Jewish ancestry a dirty secret, and that could be true of the Allens even though they aren’t Southern (good cite, **An Arky** ). For the record, the opposite is also sometimes a problem: people who convert to Judaism when they marry will sometimes get the cold shoulder from their new in-laws. > [@Bricker](#): > > I’m curious to know if the OP has revised his opinion after reading this thread. I am, too. _However_, like **appleciders** , I’m perplexed by Allen’s alleged defensiveness on the issue, and I wonder if **astro** also may have picked up on that. There’s nothing implausible about Allen’s claim of ignorance, but his response is confusing. Maybe he’s just defending his mother and feels it’s private; maybe he’s unhappy that the word is out. I’m trying not to judge it either way at this point, but I’m sure you can understand if people sense that he’s ashamed based on his reaction. > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Yep. His name isn’t even “really” Kerry. His paternal grandfather was an Austrian Jewish Hibernophile named Fritz Kohn who changed his name to Frederick Kohn after the county. That should be “Frederick Kerry,” which I’m sure you meant to type. The way I remember it, Kerry’s reaction to this news was _also_ a little weird. Frederick and his wife also converted to Catholicism when they came to the United States in 1901. In 2004, John Kerry said he was not only unaware that his grandparents were originally Jewish, he said he didn’t know, until reporters told him, that his grandfather committed suicide in 1921 by shooting himself in the restroom of a Boston hotel. It’s possible the Kerry family just never talked about it (if there was ever a type to keep quiet about those things, from what I’ve read about them, it’s the clans Forbes and Kerry), but I think it’s also understandable if some people found it tough to believe that Kerry had never heard any of this for the first 60 years of his life. Speaking of families hiding things, my girlfriend’s _entire_ genealogy is a mystery to her. She is pretty sure that she has some Finnish ancestry (one of her maternal grandparents, or maybe her mother, had the surname Finn), but other than that, her family clams up suspiciously whenever she broaches the subject. We’re not even sure what the origin of her last name is. [Does anybody have a good Web site I could use to help find out?] Her mother has given her a few variants on “it doesn’t matter, why would you want to know something like that,” which is a little like what George Allen’s mother supposedly told her kids. My girlfriend and I are positive that she has ancestors who are either Jewish, or - although it’d have to be something like 1/32nd - African-American. We favor the second theory, because she has something close to [a blonde Afro.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_098.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401/40 "2006-09-21T02:37:50Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Speaking of families hiding things, my girlfriend’s _entire_ genealogy is a mystery to her. She is pretty sure that she has some Finnish ancestry (one of her maternal grandparents, or maybe her mother, had the surname Finn), but other than that, her family clams up suspiciously whenever she broaches the subject. We’re not even sure what the origin of her last name is. [Does anybody have a good Web site I could use to help find out?] Her mother has given her a few variants on “it doesn’t matter, why would you want to know something like that,” which is a little like what George Allen’s mother supposedly told her kids. My girlfriend and I are positive that she has ancestors who are either Jewish, or - although it’d have to be something like 1/32nd - African-American. We favor the second theory, because she has something close to [a blonde Afro.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_098.html) [/QUOTE] If she knows her parents’ dates of birth, real names, and the states they were born in, going to those states’ websites ought to provide resources for getting her parents’ birth certificates (many states have “non-certified”/“non-official” copies for less money and with pretty much no proof that you have any good reason to have a copy. From there, at least the birth mother’s name ought to be on the birth certificate, and you can do the same with that name to track further back. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-credible-that-sen-george-allen-claims-he-didnt-know-about-his-jewish-ancestry/373401.md?page=3)