# Is it ethical for non-Christians to take Christmas as a paid holiday? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725 "2003-08-21T17:32:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/21 "2003-08-21T20:44:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Persephone \* > \*\*What I don’t think is quite fair is the fact that Christmas is the ONLY “religious” holiday we get time off for. I mean, Christianity isn’t the ONLY religion, y’know? \*\* Exactly. My point is that in a country that supposedly requires a separation between church and state, why do we essentially have a state imposed religious holiday? This whole topic, BTW, came into my head as a result of reading [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205111), which dealt with people objecting to religious symbolism in public places. The general consensus seems to be that it is OK to, for example, erect a Christmas tree or nativity scene on the town hall, as long as you also allow Jewish groups to put up a menorah. That sounds logical to me, but it made me wonder why we have a national holiday for Christmas but not for the Jewish high holidays, or Ramadan, or any other religion’s important festivals. Again, just ruminating. No offense meant, I swear. Barry ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/22 "2003-08-21T20:59:34Z")
Christmas is a federal holiday because the nation has a vested interest in making it a holiday. There are enough people who hold Christmas sacred that the government has decreed that there is sufficient common good to warrant declaring it a federal holiday. In other words, it’s simply a matter of what’s good for the common people. Not everyone may feel the same way about Christmas, but enough people do that this has become something that’s in the nation’s general interest. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/23 "2003-08-21T21:14:18Z")
Does anyone seriously think December 25 is observed as Christian holiday in the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/24 "2003-08-21T21:30:23Z")
Absolutely. I know quite a number of people who go to Mass on Christmas and/or Midnight Mass. And that’s not even couting theLatin American Catholics who observe Jan. 6th, or the Eastern Orthodox Christians who observe Christmas in January according to the old calendar. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/25 "2003-08-21T21:55:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Christmas is a federal holiday because the nation has a vested interest in making it a holiday. There are enough people who hold Christmas sacred that the government has decreed that there is sufficient common good to warrant declaring it a federal holiday. > > In other words, it’s simply a matter of what’s good for the common people. Not everyone may feel the same way about Christmas, but enough people do that this has become something that’s in the nation’s general interest. JT, what the government has decreed and what is good for people are two non-necessarily overlapping categories. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/26 "2003-08-21T22:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Is it ethical for non-Christians to take Christmas as a paid holiday? Yes. Christmas has taken on a secular aspect in our society which is in a way separate from the religious aspects. Its a generic winter “social gathering and gift giving day.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/27 "2003-08-21T22:37:59Z")
rjung: December 25 (the federal holiday) is known as Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![SnoopyFan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d07c76/32.png) [@SnoopyFan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnoopyFan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/28 "2003-08-21T22:39:02Z")
At one of the hospitals where I live, the Jewish employees and the Christian employees have worked out an arrangement. The Christians cover for the Jews during Hanukkah, and the Jews all cover for the Christians on Christmas Eve/Day. It works 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/29 "2003-08-21T22:43:26Z")
I agree with Blalron. Christmas, with Santa, Ruldolph, Frosty, and all that is a secular holiday, which is also (for some) a religous holiday, with the Baby Jesus, Nativities, 3 wise men, etc. However, we have gone over the whole bit about Christmas being based upon a pagan holiday several times, and dudes- don’t talk like it is an established fact- as it ain’t. True, Xmas happens to be NEAR the Solstice- but it isn’t on it (4 days off in fact). Nor was it on it back then. The same goes for it being based upon Saturnalia, as by the late empire, you can’t find ANY date on the Roman calendar that isn’t within a few days of a holiday- and again- not quite the same day. Besides, Saturnalia was pretty well dead by the time they started celebrating Christmas. A better case can be made for it being based upon the birthday of Sol Invictus, that is Mithra. There, we are only off by a day or so (hard to tell with ancient calendars- it depends upon what century it was, you know). There are many susp similarities between the faiths. However- ROMAN Mithraism, which is what everyone is talking about- did not reach the Central Empire until well after Christianity, so their faith could have just as easily borrowed from Christianity. Or both from each other. In any case, one of the early church fathers came up with a calculated date that figured to Dec 25th- all based upon info in the NT (around 400AD?). (Of course, other experts came up with other dates, based upon their interpretations & readings- many went for Jan 6th for quite some time). Whether or not he was _right_ isn’t really material- he certainly seemed sincere in his calculations of what he really thought was the “right” day- and none of those calc were based upon Saturnalia or Sol Invictus (in fact, he might not even have known of either). Barring finding some memo from an early Pope (“Hey, those Pagans are beating us out with this rad holiday, so let’s go with Brother Bart’s calculations of Dec 25th- so we can steal the day from them”), the only reasonable conclusion is that the coincidence of the dates is just that- a coincidence. (Not to say that many trappings were not out & out stolen from other cultures, such as Mistletoe, Holly & the Christmas Tree, but these are only outward trappings, not something the Church picked out to “rival” a pagan faith) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/30 "2003-08-21T22:49:36Z")
I agree with Blalron. Christmas, with Santa, Ruldolph, Frosty, and all that is a secular holiday, which is also (for some) a religous holiday, with the Baby Jesus, Nativities, 3 wise men, etc. However, we have gone over the whole bit about Christmas being based upon a pagan holiday several times, and dudes- don’t talk like it is an established fact- as it ain’t. True, Xmas happens to be NEAR the Solstice- but it isn’t on it (4 days off in fact). Nor was it on it back then. The same goes for it being based upon Saturnalia, as by the late empire, you can’t find ANY date on the Roman calendar that isn’t within a few days of a holiday- and again- not quite the same day. Besides, Saturnalia was pretty well dead by the time they started celebrating Christmas. A better case can be made for it being based upon the birthday of Sol Invictus, that is Mithra. There, we are only off by a day or so (hard to tell with ancient calendars- it depends upon what century it was, you know). There are many susp similarities between the faiths. However- ROMAN Mithraism, which is what everyone is talking about- did not reach the Central Empire until well after Christianity, so their faith could have just as easily borrowed from Christianity. Or both from each other. In any case, one of the early church fathers came up with a calculated date that figured to Dec 25th- all based upon info in the NT (around 400AD?). (Of course, other experts came up with other dates, based upon their interpretations & readings- many went for Jan 6th for quite some time). Whether or not he was _right_ isn’t really material- he certainly seemed sincere in his calculations of what he really thought was the “right” day- and none of those calc were based upon Saturnalia or Sol Invictus (in fact, he might not even have known of either). Barring finding some memo from an early Pope (“Hey, those Pagans are beating us out with this rad holiday, so let’s go with Brother Bart’s calculations of Dec 25th- so we can steal the day from them”), the only reasonable conclusion is that the coincidence of the dates is just that- a coincidence. (Not to say that many trappings were not out & out stolen from other cultures, such as Mistletoe, Holly & the Christmas Tree, but these are only outward trappings, not something the Church picked out to “rival” a pagan faith) ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/31 "2003-08-22T00:34:27Z")
Thanx for the X-mas origin posts guys, lots of fun. Is it ethical for Christians to trick or treat on Halloween? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/32 "2003-08-22T01:46:46Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by_ **Monty** > > The US Navy has a very good way to deal with this for its Active Duty personnel. If someone wishes to request a day that is for a significant religious event, say Buddha’s birthday, then they may receive that day off without being charged leave or liberty; however, they will be required to be at their place of duty on Christmas. Do you have a cite for this? I’ve been out of the service for more than a few years now, but that doesn’t seem right. If there was a reg. like that, I’m pretty sure it would be the same for all D.O.D. members. If I recall correctly, we didn’t get holidays off anyway, only days we put leave in for, holiday or not. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/33 "2003-08-22T04:37:13Z")
x-ray vision: Scroll up. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/34 "2003-08-22T04:39:41Z")
p.s. It wouldn’t have to be the same for all members of the Department of Defense. Last I checked, the United States Navy was, and still is, in fact, a separate (read: not the same thing as the others) Service within the Department of Defense. Each Service within said Department has the authority, and exercises such, to establish its own leave and liberty (pass) policies. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/35 "2003-08-22T04:42:04Z")
Come to think of it, I did leave something out. It’s not necessarily Christmas that the person would have to forego having as a day off; it would be another normal day of holiday liberty (including the sabbath (defined in the MILPERSMAN as Sunday) as a normal day of holiday). ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/36 "2003-08-22T04:56:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robertliguori \* > \*\*JT, what the government has decreed and what is good for people are two non-necessarily overlapping categories. \*\* Granted, but that’s irrelevant. I’m not saying that EVERY government decision is just. I’m merely explaining behind this PARTICULAR decision – that is, the decision to recognize Christmas as a federal holiday. Is it a just decision? I personally think so – but again, that’s ultimately irrelevant in explaining why Christmas _is_ a federal holiday. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/37 "2003-08-22T05:23:51Z")
Ethics? Whuzzat? After all, we atheists have no ethics. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/38 "2003-08-22T06:00:11Z")
Boy, what’s all this fuss over Christmas? What if you don’t want to take Labor Day off? You still have to, if it’s one of the Paid Holidays. At the place I work that means you use your accumulated Personal Time Off (also used for vacations, personal days, sick days, etc.) I don’t particularly want to take Xmas day off, even less so the whole week it falls in (which was the rule at one office where I worked) because during the cold & ugly winter what else is there to do but work, whereas in the lovely summertime there’s plenty else to do. But I do take it off, because the office is closed. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/39 "2003-08-22T06:39:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*originally posted by \ ***Monty** > > x-ray vision: Scroll up. OK, I scrolled up. There is no cite that explains this quote: > [@](#): > > The US Navy has a very good way to deal with this for its Active Duty personnel. If someone wishes to request a day that is for a significant religious event, say Buddha’s birthday, then they may receive that day off without being charged leave or liberty; however, they will be required to be at their place of duty on Christmas. Please provide a cite that tells one will not be charged leave for significant religious events. If you want leave on Buddah’s birthday, you are required to be at your place of duty for Christmas? _I’m screaming for a cite on this one!_ And what the hell is being charged liberty? > [@](#): > > Last I checked, the United States Navy was, and still is, in fact, a separate (read: not the same thing as the others) Service within the Department of Defense. What’s with the sarcasm? I wasn’t being offensive towards you. I’m quite aware that there are branches within the D.O.D. I served. Did you? > [@](#): > > Each Service within said Department has the authority, and exercises such, to establish its own leave and liberty (pass) policies. Again,cite? D.O.D is D.O.D. I’ve never heard of any service having different leave policies then another. > [@](#): > > Come to think of it, I did leave something out. It’s not necessarily Christmas that the person would have to forego having as a day off; it would be another normal day of holiday liberty (including the sabbath (defined in the MILPERSMAN as Sunday) as a normal day of holiday). Again **Monty** , what the hell are you talking about? not _necessarily_ Christmas that the person would have to forego having as a day off? So military personnel get Christmas off? Well boy that pisses me off! Guess I got ripped off when I was in. If I wanted Christmas off I had to burn a day of leave just like any other day. You really should get your facts straight before you post bullshit. Will you please tell me where you attained this info.? Is it just something someone told you once and you’re going by memory? ---
**Author:** ![Dragon\_Phoenix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Dragon\_Phoenix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragon_Phoenix)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725/40 "2003-08-22T08:24:49Z")
When I worked in Singapore, we had six religious public holidays a year: 2 Christian, 2 muslim, 1 buddhist and 1 hindu. Plus Western as well as Chinese New Year. As an agnostic, I’ll take any public holiday that the company and/or state wants to throw in my direction. Never mind what the reasoning behind it is/was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-for-non-christians-to-take-christmas-as-a-paid-holiday/196725.md?page=3)