# Is It Ethical To Defend A Known Killer. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815 "2013-01-30T14:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/41 "2013-01-30T18:57:08Z")
> [@huck](#): > > Are you really a lawyer? > [@pchaos](#): > > Let’s forget that I’ve ever mentioned that. That’s not going to make people any less curious. I think you need to explain yourself (briefly). ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/42 "2013-01-30T18:57:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How does a question like this come from a person who claims that they attended Cal at Berkeley for 8 years to become a lawyer? > edited to add: To avoid another 5 pages of misunderstanding, please tell us what you consider the normal definition of “ethical” to be, since youi think it differs from what lawyers think it is? This might be going offtrack, but another reason to disbelieve **pchaos** ’s assertion is that no one calls it “Cal at Berkeley.” It’s just “Cal” - no other UC system uses the moniker, they call themselves “UC” like UCLA or UC Davis or UC Merced or whatnot. Rarely you’ll have people say “Cal Berkeley” ala Cal Poly, but I don’t think someone who supposedly went to Cal for 8 years would call it “Cal at Berkeley.” ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/43 "2013-01-30T19:53:21Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > This might be going offtrack, but another reason to disbelieve **pchaos** ’s assertion is that no one calls it “Cal at Berkeley.” It’s just “Cal” - no other UC system uses the moniker, they call themselves “UC” like UCLA or UC Davis or UC Merced or whatnot. Rarely you’ll have people say “Cal Berkeley” ala Cal Poly, but I don’t think someone who supposedly went to Cal for 8 years would call it “Cal at Berkeley.” Without doubt in the Bay Area, I refer to it as CAL but to outsiders, I refer to it as Cal at Berkeley. Also, most of my friends refer to the law school as Boalt Hall. Only recently has the name of the law school been changed to Berkeley’s law school. Actually, to some degree I’ve been lucky and have become financially independent by practicing law in California. I may go into a new business venture (only tangentially involves law) within the next couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/44 "2013-01-30T19:55:10Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Without doubt in the Bay Area, I refer to it as CAL but to outsiders, I refer to it as Cal at Berkeley. Also, most of my friends refer to the law school as Boalt Hall. Only recently has the name of the law school been changed to Berkeley’s law school. > > Actually, to some degree I’ve been lucky and have become financially independent by practicing law in California. I may go into a new business venture (only tangentially involves law) within the next couple of years. applying as a greeter? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/45 "2013-01-30T20:02:57Z")
No. But that’s one of the reasons I like being on this Board, apparently nobody is overly impressed with my credentials. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/46 "2013-01-30T20:07:05Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > No. But that’s one of the reasons I like being on this Board, apparently nobody is overly impressed with my credentials. If that’s what you think is happening here, then accuracy-wise you are definitely on a roll. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/47 "2013-01-30T20:26:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Given that neither prosecutors nor defense attornies usually “know” guilt or innocence … do the same criteria follow on the other side? Is a prosecutor unethical for vigorously (but fairly) prosecuting a case they suspect is not guilty or feel does not deserve the full weight of the law thrown at them, or unethical if they took it upon themslevs to make that assessment rather than trying their hardest and letting the court decide? Absolutely a prosecutor has a different set of ethical obligations than a defense attorney. A prosecutor is acting unethically if they don’t believe a defendant is factually guilty but continue to prosecute anyway. If they come to believe the defendant is guilty, they must dismiss the charges against the defendant, even if they think they could get a jury to convict. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/48 "2013-01-30T20:31:44Z")
Here, you seem to have dropped one of these - “not” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/49 "2013-01-30T21:26:28Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > \*Deserves \*death? Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? No. What does that have to do with it? > [@](#): > > Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Your conclusion doesn’t follow. Just because I cannot do justice in all cases does not mean I should fail to do justice in this case. Regards, Shodan PS - Yes, I recognize the quote. Gandalf was a better wizard than he was a moral philosopher. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/50 "2013-01-31T22:22:56Z")
Minor nitpick - a defense attorney shouldn’t automatically try to guarantee a fair trial for his client, but rather due process - ensuring the state observe his client’s right as well as follow its own rules for prosecution and punishment. A trial _may_ happen, and in that case the defense attorney should ensure its fairness to the best of his ability, but if he ethically serves his clients best interests by recommending an allocution and plea bargain, or other nontrial approach, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/51 "2013-02-03T03:09:35Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > In San Jose, that problem turned up a couple of times. The prosecutor said the defense attorneys did not ask for the exculpating evidence. As a result the evidence wasn’t turned over and the defendant was found guilty. What is your point? The prosecution is obliged to turnover all relevant evidence to the defense, whether the defense asks for it or not. Also, there’s a good chance the defense doesn’t know what evidence the prosecution has unless the prosecutor discloses it, so how can it request something it may not know exists. But – I have no idea what this has to do with the thread subject. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2013, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/52 "2013-02-03T04:01:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No. What does that have to do with it? > Your conclusion doesn’t follow. Just because I cannot do justice in all cases does not mean I should fail to do justice in this case. > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - Yes, I recognize the quote. Gandalf was a better wizard than he was a moral philosopher. You’re missing the point, Shodan. Gandalf was just saying that people (hobbits) should have a sense of humility when it comes to making decisions about life and death. IOW: You are not God, so don’t act like it. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/53 "2013-02-06T06:45:37Z")
Folks, do let’s understand there’s an important difference between whether it’s ethical for an attorney to defend someone s/he knows or believes is guilty and whether it’s ethical for him or her to decline such a representation. The answer to the former (the OP) is definitely yes, for reasons stated upthread. The answer to the latter, though, is also yes. Which is to say, the defendant is entitled to a defense, but s/he isn’t generally entitled to defense by a particular lawyer. (The main exception being when counsel tries to withdraw on the eve of trial.) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/54 "2013-02-06T14:34:33Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > That’s exactly it. I used to think defense lawyers in murder trials were scum, but it ain’t so; everyone deserves a fair trial. Perhaps more to the point, everyone deserves the right for everyone else to have a fair trial. If Stabby McStabberton doesn’t get a fair trial, pretty soon no one will. And if there’s no pressure to have fair trials, pretty soon much of the law enforcement industry doesn’t really put a lot of emphasis on catching the right person. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/55 "2013-02-06T15:32:42Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Am I the only one who first saw the thread title as “Is It Ethical To Defend A Klown Killer?” That’s exactly how I first read it. > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > John Adam’s defense of the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre. Good example. Nitpick: Adams’s > [@Lemur866](#): > > We get this sort of thing every now and then. “Why do we bother giving obviously guilty people a fair trial? Only innocent people deserve a fair trial.” > > The problem of course is determining which people are innocent, and therefore deserve a fair trial, and which are guilty and don’t deserve a fair trial. And so, before we gave the defendant a fair trial, we’d have to have some sort of impartial tribunal to determine whether the person is innocent, and therefore we should continue with the fair trial, or whether the person is guilty, and the trial should be dispensed with. This is the point. You don’t _know_ it until the state has proven it in court. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/56 "2013-02-06T16:39:49Z")
Absolutely. Everyone is entitled to a capable, zealous defense of a charge that could end them in jail or executed. I would find it personally distasteful, but ethically, it would be my duty if no one else were available to defend the guy. If you were ever charged with a crime, even if you knew you did it, you would probably want a lawyer too. The burden is on the prosecution to prove your guilt, not on you to prove your innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/57 "2013-02-06T16:40:54Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Am I the only one who first saw the thread title as “Is It Ethical To Defend A Klown Killer?” _Now_ I am :mad: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/58 "2013-02-06T17:30:50Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The burden is on the prosecution to prove your guilt, not on you to prove your innocence. Yeah, I never got the innocent until proven guilty thing. Shouldn’t it be innocent _unless_ proven guilty. It makes way more sense my way. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815/59 "2013-02-06T18:21:52Z")
I prefer “considered innocent until proven guilty.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-defend-a-known-killer/648815.md?page=2)