# Is it ethical to kill a sadistic criminal who hasn't actually killed anybody? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 24, 2012, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964 "2012-11-24T06:09:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/21 "2012-11-24T20:21:17Z")
> [@SCAdian](#): > > What you want to do is knock out the transporter device, then render him unconscious so he can’t escape by more normal means. Everyone he has used the agonizer on gets to use it on him - twice. _Then_ hang him. Sure, but that’s avoiding the issue. The technomages predict they WILL be able to stop him non-lethally–they just can’t do it right now. The question is should the city use the certainly-lethal method if the R begins another attack before the non-lethal countermeasure is ready. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/22 "2012-11-24T21:17:55Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Seems to be cheating to me. If the mayor or police chief gives the EE-provided killing mojo to a civilian to use, that’s still the same as the city doing it. > > “To live outside the law, you must be honest.” If you’re gonna execute a guy because that’s the best solution to the problem (i.e., the solution that prevents the most suffering the quickest), then do it your ownself, don’t pretend you’re not doing it by recruiting a civilian. If the mayor’s not willing to commit the requisite cold-blooded murder, he should wait the predicted four to six weeks for the non-lethal countermeasure. That’s not what I meant at all. If I was the mayor, I would be constrained to wait for the non-lethal counter-measure. No cop-outs, no handing it off to a civilian. But if I was just a random guy and _chance_ dropped the lethal option into my lap, I’d push the button. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/23 "2012-11-24T21:21:32Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s not what I meant at all. If I was the mayor, I would be constrained to wait for the non-lethal counter-measure. No cop-outs, no handing it off to a civilian. But if I was just a random guy and _chance_ dropped the lethal option into my lap, I’d push the button. Gotcha. While I think your position is wrong, it’s not self-contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![FlyByNight512](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@FlyByNight512](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyByNight512)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/24 "2012-11-24T21:52:48Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > I believe that by violating the social contract, they have forfeited their right to _freedom_. But nobody is allowed to take away someone else’s right to _live_\*. In this sense, suicide remains morally permissible but murder (state-sanctioned or otherwise) does not. > > \*Exceptions granted for self-defense. I’ll stand by my original statement that someone who preys on human beings has forfeited their right to live. I will qualify it that IRL, there are so many problems with the death sentence that I’m very reluctant to apply it. You said ‘exceptions granted for self-defense’, and that’s mostly what my comment about leading a lynch mob was about. My point is that I’m willing to kill someone in very cold blood rather than watch them continue to prey on my community, in a situation where those are the only two viable options. I don’t see this situation ever arising in the world as we know it. It would require not just a failure of the justice system but a complete lack of a justice system to appeal to, and a lack of ability to exile the person. Perhaps in a post-apocalypse world. Maybe. Heaven forbid. So I think we disagree on a fundamental level (which I respect, and I see why people chose that), but in practice I suspect we’re going to agree most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/25 "2012-11-25T01:49:10Z")
Yes, Just as it’s ethical for your mom to punish you for antagonizing your brother when you hover your hand near his head but chant “I’m not touching you!” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/26 "2012-11-25T02:03:32Z")
You know, I really was expecting there to be a lot more votes for looking for a non-murderous solution. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/27 "2012-11-25T02:28:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > we’ve provided the police with the means to track his transporter signal the instant he breaches a home, and then to remotely cause the gizmo to blow up inside his brain, killing him instantly without endangering anybody else. I think I understand what’s going on here. Now if the \*police \*were to use your gizmo on Roddenberry, that would be ‘wrong’…due process and all. But if someone at the station were…getting coffee, let’s say…and while they were away from their desk, _some unknown person_ were to push the button (or is it ‘pull the lever’ on this one?); well, that would be an unfortunate ‘accident’. And it would then be up to the Police and the District Attorney to conduct a Full Investigation to find the person or persons who were responsible for this act of vigilantism and bring them to justice. Unfortunately, with the workload that the Department has at the moment, ad with the lack of witnesses to this particular crime, it’s possible that this one will end up in the ‘Cold Case’ file… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/28 "2012-11-25T02:42:25Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You know, I really was expecting there to be a lot more votes for looking for a non-murderous solution. When you’re killing someone in self-defense or in defense of others it’s not murder. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/29 "2012-11-25T03:37:56Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ve run about 15 miles in the past few days, which my calves are informing me was a very bad idea. Turn around and go home. Your calves will thank you after a long soak in the bath. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/30 "2012-11-25T04:05:49Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > When you’re killing someone in self-defense or in defense of others it’s not murder. Even when the threat is not deadly? How horrible does a non-deadly threat have to be before lethal force is justified? There are plenty of court cases, very difficult cases, dealing with that very issue. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/31 "2012-11-25T05:06:47Z")
I would kill him. Aside from possibly overriding pragmatic concerns—as others have noted, it might be considered worth the gamble to try and seize his technology—I have to look at it from the psychological standpoint: how long are the non-lethal torture attacks going to satisfy him? What is he going to _escalate_ to? And that’s presuming that it’s only normally legal or “ethical” to kill someone to protect someone else from being murdered, which I don’t believe is the case either way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/32 "2012-11-25T05:23:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Except the Roddenberry isn’t being shot in the act of even attempt of rape or assault; he’s being killed in the act of trespassing. By the terms of the OP, the window of opportunity to murder him (and thus save his victims from torture) only comes before he has made any overtly threatening act (other than the trespass, that is). I don’t find that an ethically meaningful distinction. Let’s say that a dude wearing a purple clown wig has been breaking into houses and raping and torturing the folks that live there. Let’s say I wake up one night to see a dude wearing a purple clown wig climbing through my window. I feel pretty ethically confident in using whatever measures I can to stop him, before the rape starts. And if I see him climbing through my neighbor’s window, and there are no nonlethal measures available to save my neighbor’s family from such treatment, I think lethal measures are ethically permissible. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/33 "2012-11-25T05:35:55Z")
The OP as stated already includes a potentially non-lethal option. The authorities can publish the information that they intend to stop the attacks, and have authorized the use of deadly force should another attack occur. They might additionally provide evidence that they have the capability to do so: That depends on how easy it would be, in the expert opinion of **Skald** ’s consultants, for the Rod to circumvent the 'splody interference. Then, the ball is in the Rod’s court: He can choose to stop his attacks and continue to live, or he can choose to commit suicide by cop. It would be regrettable if he chose the latter, but it would be his decision. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/34 "2012-11-25T05:36:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t find that an ethically meaningful distinction. Let’s say that a dude wearing a purple clown wig has been breaking into houses and raping and torturing the folks that live there. Let’s say I wake up one night to see a dude wearing a purple clown wig climbing through my window. I feel pretty ethically confident in using whatever measures I can to stop him, before the rape starts. > > And if I see him climbing through my neighbor’s window, and there are no nonlethal measures available to save my neighbor’s family from such treatment, I think lethal measures are ethically permissible. :: shrugs :: I think the bastich should be killed post haste. It’s just that I think it’s cold-blooded murder. A _necessary_ murder, yes, but anybody who thinks it’s not murder is kidding himself. > [@Chronos](#): > > The OP as stated already includes a potentially non-lethal option. The authorities can publish the information that they intend to stop the attacks, and have authorized the use of deadly force should another attack occur. They might additionally provide evidence that they have the capability to do so: That depends on how easy it would be, in the expert opinion of **Skald** ’s consultants, for the Rod to circumvent the 'splody interference. Then, the ball is in the Rod’s court: He can choose to stop his attacks and continue to live, or he can choose to commit suicide by cop. It would be regrettable if he chose the latter, but it would be his decision. Um…that seems unwise. Assuming that the Roddenberry is competent in the use of his tech, you’ve just warned him that somebody’s found a way to hack into his system, thus giving him the chance to fix whatever vulnerability the EE technomages discovered. 'Sides, he may well just relocate to Los Angeles. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/35 "2012-11-25T07:49:16Z")
This is a no brainer. Deadly force is authorized in self defense or defense of another, where there is a risk of serious bodily injury or death. The Agonizer thingy qualifies. Fry the bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/36 "2012-11-25T08:20:21Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > This is a no brainer. Deadly force is authorized in self defense or defense of another, where there is a risk of serious bodily injury or death. The Agonizer thingy qualifies. Fry the bastard. Hmm. I thought you’d have more reservations. That is, I agree that Roddenberry needs killing ASAP, but I also think doing as the OP describes is flat-out murder: justified morally, mayhap, but not legally. I have due process reservations, but, me being me, I shrug and say, “It’s wrong, but we’re doing it anyway.” Have you no similar concerns? ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/37 "2012-11-25T09:08:13Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Hmm. I thought you’d have more reservations. That is, I agree that Roddenberry needs killing ASAP, but I also think doing as the OP describes is flat-out murder: justified morally, mayhap, but not legally. I have due process reservations, but, me being me, I shrug and say, “It’s wrong, but we’re doing it anyway.” Have you no similar concerns? If the guy beamed himself into my home, I’d have no reservations about shooting him to defend myself and The Druidess. I see this as analogous to a police sniper taking out a terrorist threatening hostages. Due process doesn’t enter the picture unless and until the bad guy is in police custody, which appears unlikely to happen in this scenario given his modus operandi. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/38 "2012-11-25T09:13:02Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > If the guy beamed himself into my home, I’d have no reservations about shooting him to defend myself and The Druidess. I see this as analogous to a police sniper taking out a terrorist threatening hostages. Due process doesn’t enter the picture unless and until the bad guy is in police custody, which appears unlikely to happen in this scenario given his modus operandi. Oh, clearly you have the right to shoot a person who appears in your home with mischief on his mind. It was more the state’s pre-emptive offing of him that I had concerns about, since the EE-devised gizmos necessarily offs him before he does anything threatening. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/39 "2012-11-25T14:55:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You know, I really was expecting there to be a lot more votes for looking for a non-murderous solution. Then you obviously didn’t realize how stupid and ridiculous this hypothetical is. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964/40 "2012-11-25T15:15:25Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Then you obviously didn’t realize how stupid and ridiculous this hypothetical is. Of course it’s ridiculous; I call it absurd in the poll options, I think. As for stupid, no one forced you to read it, just as no one forces you to behave in a courteous fashion. The hypothetical threads are a game. If you find them an uninteresting game, as I find, say, basketball, don’t play. I suggest you simply put me on ignore if you find the threads irksome. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-ethical-to-kill-a-sadistic-criminal-who-hasnt-actually-killed-anybody/641964.md?page=3)