# Is it even worth it for Democrats to try to convert Trump supporters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 31, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520 "2017-07-31T17:30:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/61 "2017-08-02T16:34:13Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > But that can be shown to be objectively false, since the American mainstream media’s news is the same news as that of every other outlet in the world, even from countries where our liberal/conservative split has little to no meaning… It’s no use. Those people (who think mainstream media is liberal propaganda) think all other countries are liberal / socialist. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/62 "2017-08-02T16:35:35Z")
> [@Tatterdemalion](#): > > Yes, but they’re wrong about that. Facts matter. Do you think WaPo / CNN / NYT report things that aren’t factual? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/63 "2017-08-02T16:36:37Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > It’s no use. Those people (who think mainstream media is liberal propaganda) think all other countries are liberal / socialist. I suspect there’s not nearly the uniformity in reporting in “every other outlet in the world” that **Exapno Mapcase** seems to believe there is. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/64 "2017-08-02T16:46:56Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you think WaPo / CNN / NYT report things that aren’t factual? Occasionally. They’re run by humans, after all, and humans are imperfect. But they report things that aren’t factual a lot less often than Fox News, and their errors show much less deliberate bias. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/65 "2017-08-02T16:51:50Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are people on the right that believe just as fervently as you do that their media sources tell them the truth and that it is their political opponents that operate in a “closed loop of partisan nonsense”. I know you’re not suggesting that alternative facts are just as valid as objective facts based on evidence. Do you think these people on the right who subscribe to their alternative version of facts are right to hold their views? Is there some sort of justification for their willful ignorance? Should they be allowed to hold on to their ill informed views without challenge for risk of hurting their feelings? Are they better or worse off in holding on to their uninformed opinions? Is society improved when such a large segment of population believes the lies their elected president tells them? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/66 "2017-08-02T16:55:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Occasionally. They’re run by humans, after all, and humans are imperfect. > > But they report things that aren’t factual a lot less often than Fox News, and their errors show much less deliberate bias. What’s your cite for this last sentence? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/67 "2017-08-02T17:05:12Z")
The people best able to slap some sense into Trump supporters are former Trump supporters, not Dems. Imagine the power in saying “Hey, _I’m just like you_, I had high hopes for the President and thought he was just what the country needed” before unleashing “Now let me tell me why I regret my vote .” Dems aren’t going to be able to offer this kind of politically correct candy coating because the vast majority saw him as nothing but bad from the very beginning. People who have always been anti-Trump can’t liken themselves to Trump supporters and come across as sincere; it would be a lie everybody can see through. What Dems should do is encourage an atmosphere that allows former Trump supporters to speak up and announce their change of hearts without being attacked. The more of them that come out of the closet, the more supporters will question themselves. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/68 "2017-08-02T17:08:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What Dems should do is encourage an atmosphere that allows former Trump supporters to speak up and announce their change of hearts without being attacked. LOL. I don’t think most Dems are capable of this. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/69 "2017-08-02T17:14:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s your cite for this last sentence? Reality, fact-checking, outside observers, and common sense. Seriously, to get to “both sides distort equally,” you have to be stunningly–catastrophically–bad at evaluating evidence and information sources. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/70 "2017-08-02T17:14:40Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Reality, fact-checking, outside observers, and common sense. I’m not sure if you don’t know how a cite works or what, but this isn’t one. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/71 "2017-08-02T17:26:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > LOL. I don’t think most Dems are capable of this. See, this was an opportunity for you to be magnanimous. “That’s a great point, **ywtf**. I think that’s something everyone on both sides of the fence could try to do.” Very easy to type that out. Instead, you blew it because you just had to take a dig at Dems. Which now is going to invite comebacks from me and others. This is why we can’t have nice things. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/72 "2017-08-02T17:27:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > See, this was an opportunity for you to be magnanimous. “That’s a great point, **ywtf**. I think that’s something everyone on both sides of the fence could try to do.” Very easy to type that out. Instead, you blew it because you just had to take a dig at Dems. Which now is going to invite comebacks from me and others. > > This is why we can’t have nice things. It’s a FANTASTIC idea, it’s just not realistic. There’s far too much bitterness in our politics today. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/73 "2017-08-02T17:30:38Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I can’t speak for **Exapno Mapcase** , but in my view, the vast majority of Republican politicians who so far support Trump is an example of them “proudly pronounc[ing] they have no morals, no conscience, and no spines.” Some things are indefensible. The Trump presidency is one of those things. Perhaps a more clear example is the recent health care votes in the senate. With the exception of Murkowski and Collins, _every single republican senator_ displayed just how little spine and moral fiber they have. Yes, McCain too. The entire process was shameful, and the people who let McCain get away with it should not be in any position more influential than daycare owner. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > There are people on the right that believe just as fervently as you do that their media sources tell them the truth and that it is their political opponents that operate in a “closed loop of partisan nonsense”. Oh, I bet they do! That’s the whole reason they don’t read those sources. Then again, Young Earth Creationists are generally convinced that they have the _real_ science, and it’s the evilutionists who are running fake science. And yet we don’t tend to give them a pass and say, “Well, you think that way, you think that way, guess it’s about equal.” So how do we tell who’s _right_? What criteria can we observe to determine which side is delusional and which side is not? Let’s think of some. For example, _maybe_ it’s relevant to look at what facts they get wrong, how often they get things wrong, and whether there’s a clear pattern on how and why they get things wrong. Maybe it’s relevant to wonder whether what they get wrong, what they report on, and what they don’t report on has some sort of pattern. Maybe it’s particularly relevant to see if there are any big news stories that they ignore, minimize, or dismiss. [Exhibit A](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/5/18/15646098/right-wing-media-collective-memories). There really is no contest here. And looking back through the history of these places, [you can see some really important things](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/22/14762030/donald-trump-tribal-epistemology). These places were _never_ meant to be bipartisan or unbiased. They always were intended as a blatantly right-wing exercise, allegedly to balance the liberal bias of the left. And sure, mainstream news has some liberal bias. But there’s a _huge_ difference between “our coverage is unintentionally biased by the political affiliation of our reporters, but we try our best to be news for everyone” and “We’re news for and by a specific political wing, with the intention of supporting one side of the political spectrum”. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Do you think WaPo / CNN / NYT report things that aren’t factual? This is an incredibly bad question. Of course everyone makes mistakes sometimes. The difference is in frequency and goal. When I see the New York Times Corrections page, I have no problem believing those were honest mistakes. When Fox News barely covers the president firing the head of the FBI who was investigating his campaign for links to Russia, and instead spends the whole evening slagging off “dems in meltdown” and pushing an insane conspiracy theory about a DNC staffer being murdered by the Clintons, I have a really hard time seeing this as anything other than intentional. I mean, come on. When’s the last time the New York Times did that? When’s the last time _any_ mainstream news outlet did something as insane and stupid as Fox did with Comey’s firing? I mean, maybe the reporting coming out of Russia in the _30s_, but recently? Anything? ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/74 "2017-08-02T17:33:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not sure if you don’t know how a cite works or what, but this isn’t one. Yeah, it is. You need to do research and evaluate information sources, compare them to others, evaluate them against what’s possible and evidence sources of your own eyes, and come to a conclusion. And you need to do it for every fact presented. I can give you cites: [Science or Spin? | Union of Concerned Scientists](http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/fight-misinformation/cable-news-coverage-climate-change-science.html#.WYIMCa2ZMdk), [http://fair.org](http://fair.org), [PolitiFact | PunditFact checks in on the cable news channels](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jan/29/punditfact-checks-cable-news-channels/), and a dozen or two others, but you’re just going to No True Scotsman them away as being “biased.” Seriously, the “Whopper of the Year” on one side was Obama making a statement (intended to be true) about keeping your plan under the ACA. The Scandal of the Year on the liberal side was an otherwise true CNN story mis-stating the number of intelligence agencies that wrote a particular report on Trump. On the other side, we have three major conservative “news” agencies sponsoring a well-attended march protesting the imposition of Sharia Law on unwilling Americans. One side is making small errors. The other side is inventing whole worlds that don’t exist. So no, both sides are NOT distorting equally, and frankly, you either know this, or you should. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/75 "2017-08-02T17:35:17Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > Yeah, it is. You need to do research and evaluate information sources, compare them to others, evaluate them against what’s possible and evidence sources of your own eyes, and come to a conclusion. And you need to do it for every fact presented. > > I can give you cites: [Science or Spin? | Union of Concerned Scientists](http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/solutions/fight-misinformation/cable-news-coverage-climate-change-science.html#.WYIMCa2ZMdk), [http://fair.org](http://fair.org), [PolitiFact | PunditFact checks in on the cable news channels](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jan/29/punditfact-checks-cable-news-channels/), and a dozen or two others, but you’re just going to No True Scotsman them away as being “biased.” [Relevant](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16771193&postcount=307). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/76 "2017-08-02T17:36:48Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > If a liberal can’t be bothered to vote when Donald Trump is on the ballot, how much hope is there of ever inspiring that person to action? Many people simply did not like Hillary. They could not be enticed to vote for Hillary. Those people either did not vote or voted for someone/anyone else. It’s now up to the Democrat Party show runners to field a candidate with broader appeal. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/77 "2017-08-02T17:46:32Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s your cite for this last sentence? Nope, not going to bite on this. Anybody who has been reading here on the Dope knows of the dozens of threads on Fox News lies, distortions, and omissions, giving links to hundreds of articles containing thousands of examples. Telling people to go back and waste time and effort to redig them up is a distraction technique straight out of the Trump playbook. Your denial of reality is exactly why so many of us are saying Trump supporters must be bypassed and minimized rather than engaged and converted. You may think you’re going a great job on opposition but you’re just Exhibit A for the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/78 "2017-08-02T17:49:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Occasionally. They’re run by humans, after all, and humans are imperfect. > > But they report things that aren’t factual a lot less often than Fox News, and their errors show much less deliberate bias. And here’s the key…the MSM correct them when the errors are discovered. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What’s your cite for this last sentence? How about some counterexamples? How many bullshit conspiracy theories and flat-out misrepresentations have Fox News/Breitbart/Infowars championed over the years that MSM not only won’t but that they actively argue against? Seth Rich? NASA kidnappings? Birtherism? “Death panels?” Climate change denial? Vince Foster? Obama is a Muslim? Hillary gave away 20% of our uranium to Russia? That’s a very small list of things off the top of my head. I could easily dig up more if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/79 "2017-08-02T17:49:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > It’s a FANTASTIC idea, it’s just not realistic. There’s far too much bitterness in our politics today. It’s as realistic as any other issue progressives have decided to turn into something. I mean, only 10 years ago the expectation that society would call a trangendered woman “she” was unrealistic too. But people made it realistic. We’ve seen a number of Republicans publicly defect in response to Trump. That is only going to continue. Eventually, only the most resistant to reason will call themselves Trump supporters. Everyone else is going to act like they were always against 45, just as we’ve seen with Iraq revisionism. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520/80 "2017-08-02T18:00:45Z")
Most people who still support Trump only stick with him because they hate Democrats and liberals, and supporting Trump is the best way to hurt them. They’ll never turn against Trump as long as liberals want them to. If somehow it were possible for the left to ignore Trump altogether, his support would evaporate. But of course we can’t do that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-even-worth-it-for-democrats-to-try-to-convert-trump-supporters/792520.md?page=5)