# Is it evil or clever for states to undermine their enemy's money? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422 "2009-08-23T21:30:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Never\_Say\_Dice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@Never\_Say\_Dice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_Say_Dice)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/1 "2009-08-23T21:30:32Z")
During WWII, of course, all the fighters were madly counterfeiting each other’s money and postage. And we assume that North Korea and perhaps China do this today, and perhaps one day western governments will own up to cold war practices. So, should we engage in such things now, say to affect ends in Somalia or Zaire or North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/2 "2009-08-23T21:37:38Z")
Should we counterfeit the hard currency of unstable third-world nations to accomplish nefarious and dastardly but also vague and nebulous ends? No. What would doing so accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/3 "2009-08-23T21:43:03Z")
We’re not at war with any of the countries you mention, so the comparison to WWII doesn’t hold. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/4 "2009-08-23T22:06:18Z")
So you’re saying that nations can bomb each other’s roads, factories, ports, power plants and airports… but they shouldn’t be allowed to hurt each other’s economies? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/5 "2009-08-23T22:26:18Z")
It’s no more dastardly a tactic than any other methods of warfare. But with the enemies we currently have, it’d be futile. We can’t ruin North Korea’s economy, because Kim Jong Il beat us to it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/6 "2009-08-23T22:31:15Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So you’re saying that nations can bomb each other’s roads, factories, ports, power plants and airports… but they shouldn’t be allowed to hurt each other’s economies? Who is saying that? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/7 "2009-08-24T03:21:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We can’t ruin North Korea’s economy, because Kim Jong Il beat us to it. Nice one! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/8 "2009-08-24T03:51:19Z")
> [@Never\_Say\_Dice](#): > > So, should we engage in such things now, say to affect ends in Somalia or Zaire or North Korea? Our problems are now solved! Somali shillings for everyone! …and what does Zaire use now-a-days? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/9 "2009-08-24T05:20:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Who is saying that? It seemed to be implied that it was somehow more evil than other elements of warfare. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/10 "2009-08-24T05:38:18Z")
> [@Never\_Say\_Dice](#): > > So, should we engage in such things now, say to affect ends in Somalia or Zaire or North Korea? How would counterfeiting the currency conceivably make things any better in Somalia or Zaire or North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2009, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/11 "2009-08-24T06:24:50Z")
I would be seriously surprised if the Chinese government was currently printing fake US currency. They are heavily invested in the future of the dollar and such a move would destroy the value of that investment. It wouldn’t be terribly surprising if some private Chinese individuals were attempting to do US counterfeiting. But if caught the Chinese government would likely punish them quite harshly. Now the North Koreans counterfeiting has been strongly rumored for years. ---
**Author:** ![Number43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@Number43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Number43)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/12 "2009-08-25T07:09:16Z")
Counterfeiting another countries currency is a hostile enough act that it would be uncalled for outside of a war. Incidentally, I’ve read that the British helped people counterfeit massive amounts of Continental currency during the Revolutionary War. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2009, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/13 "2009-08-25T07:16:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It’s no more dastardly a tactic than any other methods of warfare. But with the enemies we currently have, it’d be futile. We can’t ruin North Korea’s economy, because Kim Jong Il beat us to it. Damn it, he’s always one step ahead of us. ---
**Author:** ![Never\_Say\_Dice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee59a6/32.png) [@Never\_Say\_Dice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Never_Say_Dice)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/14 "2009-08-27T16:08:19Z")
I bet we do it now with Cuba, but they would never admit it and neither would we. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/15 "2009-08-27T16:49:53Z")
Remember that for a lot of really nasty countries the currency isn’t convertable anyway. They aren’t traded on the world market, and are therefore essentially worthless outside the country. And visitors aren’t allowed to brink suitcases full of currency into the country, either the local scrip or hard currency. You’re generally required to buy a certain amount of the local scrip at outrageous exchange rates, and the government carefully hordes foreign hard currency so they can buy imports. To use these unconverable currencies, you’d have to smuggle them into the country and get it into the hands of people who could spend it. But what are they going to spend it on? This is how the Soviet Union used to work, and how North Korea still works. Other countries like Zimbabwe or Somalia are a little different in that their currencies are also essentially worthless inside the country as well as outside. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/16 "2009-08-27T16:52:46Z")
Why can’t it be both, like the late Earl Warren? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/17 "2009-08-27T18:13:20Z")
> [@Never\_Say\_Dice](#): > > D > So, should we engage in such things now, say to affect ends in Somalia or Zaire or North Korea? Well, as Zaire no longer exists and Somalia doesn’t have a functioning fiat currency based economy, it would be fairly pointless. But it is not particularly evil to try to undermine an actual enemy state’s economy. It may be pointless as it is hard to actually effect, but evil? ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/18 "2009-08-27T18:21:54Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Our problems are now solved! Somali shillings for everyone! …and what does Zaire use now-a-days? Nothing, the country Zaire no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-evil-or-clever-for-states-to-undermine-their-enemys-money/507422/19 "2009-08-27T18:29:11Z")
If the North Korean government counterfeits U.S. dollars or $20 bills, I would think it does it for exactly the same reason a private counterfeiter does, i.e., to get money/stuff for free or nearly-free, and **not** as a scheme to “undermine” the value of the dollar, i.e., cause artificial inflation. You would have to counterfeit a whole **lot** of U.S. notes, some nontrivial percentage of the amount the Federal Reserve (or the U.S. Mint?) has printed each year, to cause any noticeable dilution of the dollar’s purchasing power; and while it might be possible for NK to print that many, it would not be possible to pass that many.