# Is it fair to duck jury duty if you know you could never send anyone to jail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2000, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068 "2000-12-05T03:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/21 "2000-12-05T20:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by magdalene \* > jmullaney, that is an absolutely false reading of my views. I do think that as a juror, forgiveness is not my business. If not you, who? > [@](#): > > Forgiveness is something a criminal needs to seek from his victims and his conscience (and God, if he is religious), not 'the state" or “society” or “the jury.” If society is not his victim, then why is it any business of society whether or not his should be punished? Doesn’t society delegate this authority to the jury in our system? > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean forgiveness is not possible, just that it is not the point of a criminal proceeding. The point of a criminal proceeding is not determine whther someone should be punished for what they are alleged to have done? Then I am honestly unaware of what the point is. Are you saying defendants who are found guilty are never punished? > [@](#): > > Do you, **jmullaney** , think that all crimes should go unpunished by society? I don’t think anyone has given society that right. As for how I know what God wants – I believe what Jesus taught is the truth. Having answered you questions, please answer mine: **If you forgive them with one breath, why would you want to still condemn them with the next?** [quote[I’m saying that as a juror, under our legal system, my “forgiveness” is irrelevant and your “forgiveness” in advance of even knowing whether they have committed a crime should preclude you from serving on juries in the USA.[/quote] Well, I would not need to forgive them if they had not commited a crime. You are saying it is wrong to forgive people. I disagree. > [@](#): > > I hope that if you are called for jury duty you are honest about these views during voir dire. I believe in speaking truly. Just ask **Jodi**. 😃 > [@](#): > > A big bad chemical company poisons little children, someone sues. You are on the jury - do you leave it up to God to decide whether the chemical company is liable for their actions and the children deserve compensation? This I haven’t given much contemplation. I suppose that if the company were unwilling to give freely, I would a party to theft. I just don’t believe in “an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.” > [@](#): > > Again, the gist of your arguments is that society has no right, whatsoever, to punish, incarcerate, or in any way decide the guilt or innocence of wrongdoers - that should all be left up to God. That is a valid assessment of what Christ taught. ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/22 "2000-12-05T20:38:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSYoungEsq \* > \*\*Um, folks, when someone is trolling with absurd viewpoints to see you get all wound up, you really shouldn’t take the bait like that. **Jodi** at least knows better. \*\* Are you talking to me? ARE YOU TALKING TO ME? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/23 "2000-12-05T20:41:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DSYoungEsq \* > **Um, folks, when someone is trolling with absurd viewpoints to see you get all wound up, you really shouldn’t take the bait like that.** Yes, I appreciate that some people find Jesus’s teachings to be absurd. That’s not my problem. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lemur866 \* > In most threads you seem perfectly sane. Then something like this comes along, and you’re in JDT territory. Well, I never cease to be surprised by what comes out of the keyboards of self-professing Christians and others who claim to have morals. > [@](#): > > You are saying that as a society, we have no right to police protection? Do not resist an evil person. > [@](#): > > 38 "You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, `Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ > 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, > 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. > 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? I don’t think it is an act of love to send someone to prison. > [@](#): > > the purpose is to protect ourselves Do not resist one who is evil. Besides, how do you know they would do it again? Are you psychic? > [@](#): > > So, would you be able to convict someone for commiting a crime that was NOT a sin? If they haven’t even commited a sin, there is no basis for punishment what-so-ever. ---
**Author:** ![Short](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Short](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Short)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/24 "2000-12-05T20:47:22Z")
As Jodi alluded to, isn’t it the duty of a jury to “judge the law as well as the crime.” Oregon, for example, has juries determine the law as well as the facts. States like Oregon are (unfortunately) an exception rather than a rule. I could not in good conscience convict someone (find facts that indicate their guilt) if they had done nothing that I would consider a crime. I think that is (should be) the purpose of jury trials. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/25 "2000-12-05T21:00:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I believe in speaking truly. Just ask Jodi. Jodi thinks you wouldn’t know the truth if it bit you on the ass. Jodi also is forced to conclude that either DSYOUNG is right and you are simply yanking people’s chains, or you are . . . I tread a fine line here, to avoid delivering an insult in the santified realm of Great Debates . . . ah, not blessed with a surfeit of cognitive ability. I’m not sure if you are being intentionally obtuse or really ARE obtuse; either way, any attempt to reason with you further is an obvious waste of my time. SHORT: > [@](#): > > As Jodi alluded to, isn’t it the duty of a jury to “judge the law as well as the crime.” Boy, I hope I never said this. It is the duty of the jury to decide the facts, not the law. The law is already decided, by the legislature that passed it and the courts that interpret it. Juries find facts, not law. > [@](#): > > Oregon, for example, has juries determine the law as well as the facts. Really? Are you sure? I think I may have to spend a moment looking this up. > [@](#): > > I could not in good conscience convict someone (find facts that indicate their guilt) if they had done nothing that I would consider a crime. I think that is (should be) the purpose of jury trials. It’s not. Prostitution is a crime. If you personally did not feel it _should_ be a crime, that would not change the fact that it _is_ a crime. If you as a juror were convinced that the defendant had committed the crime of prostitution but refused to convict them on the grounds it should not be a crime, that would be jury nullification. As noted above, a jury does technically have the right to do this (because it frankly cannot be stopped from doing so), it is not a result to be desired. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/26 "2000-12-05T21:02:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > I do not consider myself to have the ability to forgive sin. A sin is an offense against divine law, and IMO is only “forgivable” by God Himself. So, you do not have the power to forgive sins, but you do have the power to punish people for them. How quaint! :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > It certainly is not inconsistent with fairly and impartially hearing the facts of a case before rendering a decision under the secular law. Do you think it is an act of love to send someone to prison? > [@](#): > > As a juror in a criminal trial, I am a fact-finder concerned with determining whether or not a person has commited a particular crime. Well, you seem to be occluded from the truth of the situation. > [@](#): > > but justice with a small “j” – the punishment of crime – is properly left to society. Small J??? You are saying this comes down to punctuation??? > [@](#): > > Are you seriously arguing that no crime, no matter how henious, should ever be punished by society? That is what Jesus taught. Who am I to question him? > [@](#): > > They violated the law; they ought to be punished. So you believe in an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, right? Even though Jesus said this was wrong. > [@](#): > > I am fully capable of personally forgiving the girl who steals my purse while simultaneoulsy thinking that she ought to be punished for it. Then what is the purpose of forgiveness? So could God forgive you your sins and still send you to hell? That would be OK with you, right? > [@](#): > > there should be no judging – no legal accountability at all? Sounds like a big ol’ bad idea to me. Christianity is a bad idea? Maybe you are right. > [@](#): > > sin and crime are NOT the same things. If you doubt this, look them up in whatever dictionary you have handy. You are only mincing words. When Jesus walked the earth, if you sinned you were stoned or put into prison for your sins. You know that. > [@](#): > > since you are yourself an admitted sinner who does not follow the laws of God as you understand them You just said Christianity is a bad idea. Please make up your mind. * * * “‘The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.’ … Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing” – Jesus of Nazareth ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/27 "2000-12-05T21:07:34Z")
Jury Nullification: While I agree that a jury does have the right (in most cases) to decide what they want, this should only happen in cases where there is an extreme injustice of the law. Think about how jury nullification has been used…as a tool of racists. This is not something that we should take lightly. Jmullaney: I knew you were going to say this. Please send me your tunic. And…hmmm, your cloak looks nice too. Please send that as well. You pay the postage, K? I am an atheist, so your arguments are meaningless. I believe that when I die, I’m just dead, that’s it. So, since this life on earth is all I get, I prefer not to be robbed or beaten or killed, since I know that I will not be rewarded in heaven for suffering for Jesus’ sake. I’m sure Jesus was a very nice man, but I don’t like to be robbed or beaten or killed. NOW do you get it? ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/28 "2000-12-05T21:10:34Z")
SHORT, Oregon, like most other jursictions, appears to present questions of fact to the jury and questions of law to the judge – not to the jury. See, for example, _Woolston v. Wells_, 687 P.2d 144 (Oregon 1984), where the court held that a defense “presents a pure question of law [and therefore] should not be submitted to the jury.” ---
**Author:** ![Short](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Short](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Short)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/29 "2000-12-05T22:05:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*SHORT, Oregon, like most other jursictions, appears to present questions of fact to the jury and questions of law to the judge – not to the jury. > > See, for example, _Woolston v. Wells_, 687 P.2d 144 (Oregon 1984), where the court held that a defense “presents a pure question of law [and therefore] should not be submitted to the jury.” > > \*\* Oh damn, I must have started an argument with a lawyer. 🙂 Actually I was very careful in my wording; That is I copied the Oregon constitution ( [http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orconst.html](http://www.leg.state.or.us/orcons/orconst.html) ) section 16 of which states in part > [@](#): > > \*\*In all criminal cases whatever, the jury shall have the right to determine the law, and the facts under the direction of the Court as to the law, and the right of new trial, as in civil cases. \*\* I’m sure you are correct about the interpertation, though. My point was an example of a priciple. Evidentally a bad example, but such is life. For the record, I got that Jodi alluded to juries judging the laws from some posts back “If I strain, I guess I can see how a person might favor a null verdict in one particular case – if the facts and law were both very, very bad --…” I apologize if this was a misrepresentation of your views Jodi. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/30 "2000-12-05T22:16:41Z")
JMULLANEY, I have responded to you here: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=49557](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=49557) ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/31 "2000-12-05T22:23:20Z")
> [@](#): > > In all criminal cases whatever, the jury shall have the right to determine the law, and the facts under the direction of the Court as to the law, and the right of new trial, as in civil cases. Huh. That certainly says what you said it says. Now I’M confused. Be right back. Back. SHORT, do you know which Article of the Oregon Constitution this is from? If so, I can look up the annotations to it (the cases), but not without that information. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/32 "2000-12-05T22:34:04Z")
This is pretty lame. I hope that a pissed off meth-abusing biker attacks jmullany, and he doesn’t resist, and gets his stupid little ass kicked. Back to the OP- did it occur that you could be helping to exonerate an innocent person? Isn’t that noble enuf for ya? Go sit in the pool, it won’t kill you. An honest bias is not a crime, blowing it off should be. Don’t worry, you will probably never even get to that point anyway- I have been in the jury pool three times in the last few years, and have never even gotten to voir dire. ---
**Author:** ![Kami\_Bum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/838e76/32.png) [@Kami\_Bum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kami_Bum)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/33 "2000-12-05T22:38:12Z")
Hmmm…In case you didn’t know jmullaney, not everyone is Christian, so God has no relevance to some. When they die without punishment for a crime because of people like you, that is it (No religion has been proved right or wrong yet…). It encourages more crime since criminals know they won’t receive punishment. Some people also actually value order in a society as well. Therefore, since these people seem to be the majority, laws and government were established to keep order. Anarchy would prevail if everyone were like you. Why bother having laws if they aren’t enforced? ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/34 "2000-12-05T22:47:28Z")
As for the OP here are the reasons in California for which you are automatically ineligible for completing jury service > [@](#): > > 1. (a) All persons are eligible and qualified to be prospective > trial jurors, except the following: > (1) Persons who are not citizens of the United States. > (2) Persons who are less than 18 years of age. > (3) Persons who are not domiciliaries of the State of California, > as determined pursuant to Article 2 (commencing with Section 2020) of > Chapter 1 of Division 2 of the Elections Code. > (4) Persons who are not residents of the jurisdiction wherein they > are summoned to serve. > (5) Persons who have been convicted of malfeasance in office or a > felony, and whose civil rights have not been restored. > (6) Persons who are not possessed of sufficient knowledge of the > English language, provided that no person shall be deemed incompetent > solely because of the loss of sight or hearing in any degree or > other disability which impedes the person’s ability to communicate or > which impairs or interferes with the person’s mobility. > (7) Persons who are serving as grand or trial jurors in any court > of this state. > (8) Persons who are the subject of conservatorship. > (b) No person shall be excluded from eligibility for jury service > in the State of California, for any reason other than those reasons > provided by this section. The next section expounds on this more: > [@](#): > > 1. (a) No eligible person shall be exempt from service as a trial > juror by reason of occupation, race, color, religion, sex, national > origin, or economic status, or for any other reason. No person shall > be excused from service as a trial juror except as specified in > subdivision (b). > (b) An eligible person may be excused from jury service only for > undue hardship, upon themselves or upon the public, as defined by the > Judicial Council. So in California the OP has no excuse for not serving jury duty unless s/he can prove one of the conditions in section 203. ---
**Author:** ![Short](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Short](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Short)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/35 "2000-12-05T23:05:37Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Jodi \* \*\* > [@](#): > > SHORT, do you know which Article of the Oregon Constitution this is from? If so, I can look up the annotations to it (the cases), but not without that information. \*\* Oops, I meant to include that too. It is Art 1, sec 16. This is a bit of a hijack, but what database do you use to reseach state law questions? Several sites I use have USSC caselaw, but all have little or no state caselaw. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/36 "2000-12-05T23:09:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kami\_Bum \* > not everyone is Christian, so God has no relevance to some. Good point Kami. That whole “love of enemy” bit is a hard thing to swallow – and I’m hardly a good person. But were push to come to shove I’d have to do what I could. I couldn’t bear the thought of having sent someone to prison on my conscious. I don’t think such punishment serves anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/37 "2000-12-05T23:12:29Z")
jmanually you can’t forgive people. You can only not judge them. Only jesus and god have the ability to forgive sins. Of course not judging them does not mean not judging wether or not they did a paticular thing. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/38 "2000-12-05T23:22:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Asmodean \* > Only jesus and god have the ability to forgive sins. Then what does this mean? > [@](#): > > Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Or this: > [@](#): > > If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. Or the Lord’s prayer, fer crying out loud. But please, come join the Pit thread. Someone just quoted Jesus and said that his teaching was the stupidest thing they’d ever heard! ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/39 "2000-12-05T23:26:53Z")
**Short** , I find that a good starting point for legal research involving cases or statutes is [http://www.findlaw.com](http://www.findlaw.com) which has a wealth of resources available. Or, of course, you can try using the various search and find services to locate web pages, using the name of the state and the word ‘statutes’ or ‘cases’. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2000, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068/40 "2000-12-05T23:38:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > > I do not consider myself to have the ability to forgive sin. A sin is an offense against divine law, and IMO is only “forgivable” by God Himself. > > So, you do not have the power to forgive sins, but you do have the power to punish people for them. How quaint! :rolleyes: A juror has the power to decide if someone has committed a crime. A judge, either elected or appointed by an elected executive, has the power to punish a person for said crime. The victim of an action has the power to forgive the perpetrator for that action. Nobody has the power to forgive or to punish someone for a sin. Your inability – nay – your deliberate refusal to see the difference between these two elementary concepts is frightening and disheartening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-duck-jury-duty-if-you-know-you-could-never-send-anyone-to-jail/44068.md?page=3)