# Is it fair to say Jesus committed suicide? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 25, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184 "2017-01-25T21:29:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/41 "2017-01-26T17:35:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is this true? All the prophecies listed in the Old Testament were all written after the events of Jesus? 800 to 1000 years BEFORE Jesus you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/42 "2017-01-26T17:35:58Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The one large Christian belief that gets in the way of this suicide stuff is that Jesus didn’t die. He tidied up a few loose ends here and there for a few days, then returned to ascended to heaven. Absent a death, there’s no suicide. Absent a death, there’s also no “dying for our sins”. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/43 "2017-01-26T17:44:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So far, there is no prophecy listed in the Bible which is generally accepted by scholars to have been written previous to the events prophesied. Linguistic choices, references to other events, etc. in the writings have always coincided with/followed the happening of the event, rather than when the prophecy was supposedly made. I don’t think this is accepted by serious historians. You need to quote some sources if you want to claim this. The use of similar phrases, events, etc. is easily understandable when you realise that the writers of the New Testament were actively looking for old Biblical prophesies and then claiming that the events of Jesus’ life fulfilled them. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/44 "2017-01-26T17:46:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Absent a death, there’s also no “dying for our sins”. You’re confusing earthly death with spiritual death. Everyone suffers an end to their mortal life. It’s the Christian belief that the eternal soul survives mortal death and lives in eternal glory. Then there’s the resurrection thing where the body and the soul are reunited. So, “dying for our sins” is the method whereby the old law (sacrifice, etc.) was replaced by the new law (Christian view) by the suffering on the cross. No Christian believes Christ is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/45 "2017-01-26T17:53:09Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > 800 to 1000 years BEFORE Jesus you mean. I was responding with a question to this quote: “there is no prophecy listed in the Bible which is generally accepted by scholars to have been written previous to the events prophesied” ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/46 "2017-01-26T17:56:34Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > the writers of the New Testament were actively looking for old Biblical prophesies and then claiming that the events of Jesus’ life fulfilled them. [At least once](http://bibles.org/eng-KJV/Matt/21) they didn’t even bother being subtle about it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/47 "2017-01-26T18:00:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re confusing earthly death with spiritual death. Everyone suffers an end to their mortal life. It’s the Christian belief that the eternal soul survives mortal death and lives in eternal glory. Then there’s the resurrection thing where the body and the soul are reunited. So, “dying for our sins” is the method whereby the old law (sacrifice, etc.) was replaced by the new law (Christian view) by the suffering on the cross. No Christian believes Christ is dead. Sorry, but a bad S&M session you’ve agreed to beforehand, using “DAD” as a safe-word, when you know that it’s only temporary and there’s a payoff that big in the end isn’t a “sacrifice”-it’s the big finish to a magic act. I think there are untold thousands(if not millions) who suffered much more and much longer then died for real that would have nailed themselves up on a cross for a guaranteed payoff like that, where neither your spirit _or_ your body actually stays dead. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/48 "2017-01-26T18:01:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I was responding with a question to this quote: > > “there is no prophecy listed in the Bible which is generally accepted by scholars to have been written previous to the events prophesied” how about… Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. Micah 5:2 Messiah would be born of a virgin. Isaiah 7:14 These clearly precede the events prophesied. Even in Zechariah 11:12-13 New International Version (NIV) 12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord. Written some 518 years before it happened. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/49 "2017-01-26T18:02:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Here’s a [previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=189190) (wow, over ten years ago!) that discusses the matter. > > The obvious point first - other people killed Jesus, so what we’re really talking about is something along the lines of suicide by willingly entering a murderous situation. > > It seems reasonable to say that Jesus knew in advance that he was going to be killed. Likewise, he knew in advance that he was going to be betrayed to this, too; he had opportunity to avoid it, at least at this moment. > > So is Jesus willingly going to his own death in this manner, even if it would be at the hands of others, “suicide”? I am not a Biblical (or other relevant kind of) historian and confess to extrapolating a lot from the little I do know, but my impression has always been that J of N intended to put the relevant officials in a position where they’d have to choose between _either_ condemning him to death on a bullshit charge or _else_ conceding his point about the spirit versus the letter of the law. I don’t think he anticipated that they would punt the matter to the Romans. I don’t think he was trying to get his ass killed. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/50 "2017-01-26T18:02:48Z")
Gah! I’m not the one saying they weren’t! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/51 "2017-01-26T18:03:34Z")
About those prophesies [he supposedly fulfilled.](http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/52 "2017-01-26T18:05:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > About those prophesies [he supposedly fulfilled.](http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html) Yeah, but don’t you think there is a difference between “Jesus didn’t fulfill any prophesies” and “No prophesies were written until after the events the prophesied” ? Anyway, I am not arguing fulfillment or whatever, I was just surprised to read that since I hadn’t heard that before. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/53 "2017-01-26T18:11:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Gah! I’m not the one saying they weren’t! Sorry then, I’m not catching your point. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/54 "2017-01-26T18:15:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yeah, but don’t you think there is a difference between “Jesus didn’t fulfill any prophesies” and “No prophesies were written until after the events the prophesied” ? > > Anyway, I am not arguing fulfillment or whatever, I was just surprised to read that since I hadn’t heard that before. It all depends on whether you can call it a prophesy if it never comes true, and whether some of them were really prophesies at all. in post #39 I wrote > [@](#): > > Or they weren’t really prophesies at all, or they were so vague they could apply to a wide range of events, or they didn’t match up at all despite claims to the contrary. Also, if one prophesy is supposedly fulfilled and another is obviously not, does one cancel out the other…or does a flood of prophesies thrown at a dartboard make you a prophet? Yes, there were prophesies written before Jesus did his thing, but did they pertain to him? It’s the ones that people claim are accurate that are in question. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/55 "2017-01-26T18:19:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > About those prophesies [he supposedly fulfilled.](http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html) Czar, that’s a Jewish source. They don’t believe Christ was the messiah. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/56 "2017-01-26T18:23:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > … > Also, if one prophesy is supposedly fulfilled and another is obviously not, does one cancel out the other…or does a flood of prophesies thrown at a dartboard make you a prophet? > > Yes, there were prophesies written before Jesus did his thing, but did they pertain to him? It’s the ones that people claim are accurate that are in question. Well, from Isiah 7:14 …_13Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 14"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.…_ That virgin with child thing. That’s a pretty tough order. Especially when it was written in the 8th century BCE (BC) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/57 "2017-01-26T18:30:20Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Well, from Isiah 7:14 > > …_13Then he said, "Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well? 14"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel. 15"He will eat curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.…_ > > That virgin with child thing. That’s a pretty tough order. Especially when it was written in the 8th century BCE (BC) See section (3)A of my link. > [@](#): > > The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an “alma” as giving birth. The word “alma” has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as “virgin.” This accords Jesus’ birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/58 "2017-01-26T18:31:24Z")
This was the original post to which I was responding: > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > So far, there is no prophecy listed in the Bible which is generally accepted by scholars to have been written previous to the events prophesied So MY question was, were all the prophesies that are written in the Old Testament written AFTER Jesus? As a response question to the post. > [@Morgenstern](#): > > Sorry then, I’m not catching your point. I didn’t have a point. I had a question, based on reading something that I hadn’t heard before. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/59 "2017-01-26T18:33:02Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Czar, that’s a Jewish source. They don’t believe Christ was the messiah. If it was a Christian source you would accept it? I think having a prequalification to believe that the prophesies were fulfilled before you could analyze them seems rather silly, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184/60 "2017-01-26T18:33:37Z")
It is only a “tough order” if you assume the origin myth built around Jesus to be historically accurate _and_ [you assume that “virgin” is an accurate translation](https://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-fair-to-say-jesus-committed-suicide/778184.md?page=4)