Well, technically, as part of the Trinity I guess you could blame the other two. 
If the church doesn’t consider the soldier who throws himself on a grenade a suicide because he gave his life to save others, does that mean I can kill myself as long as I’m an organ donor and my dying saves others?
Not if you kill yourself with a grenade.
If nothing else, it really hurt.
I’m not sure you can assume the second based on the first. Too, some quick searching on dictionaries online do use definitions of suicide that would include this kind of act. Merriam-Webster has, “the act or an instance of taking one’s own life voluntarily and intentionally”. Oxford, “The action of killing oneself intentionally”. Dictionary. com; “the intentional taking of one’s own life”.
I think there’s an argument to be made that the lack of usage of the term is more a matter of specificity than wrongness. Or that the negative appeal of the word means people don’t want to use it to describe a heroic deed.
Yes, indeed. But we call suicide-by-cop… what we call it. And, as you say, it’s still his own act that causes the final death.
“He just didn’t save himself” - if I, through no fault of my own, find myself on train tracks as a train comes rushing on, and I deliberately do not save myself, am I not a suicide?
I’m afraid I don’t know enough about varying Christian theology to know whether there’s broad agreement that Jesus knew he would be coming back. But no, I don’t believe a resurrection means there was no suicide. If we cut off a regenerating lizard’s tail, we have cut off that tail even if it grows back. If I, typing this, go back and delete this sentence, then write it out again, that doesn’t mean I didn’t delete it. There was a cut, or a deletion, and then a restoration.
I didn’t actually start this thread with that goal in mind, though others arguing seem to have thought of that.
I think what some people miss today is the analogy of animal sacrifice in the death of Jesus.
Animal sacrifice was normal in every single religion at that time, including the Jewish religion. You offered an animal as a gift to a deity and ritually killed it. In return the deity would do something for you.
In Christian theology Jesus is “the Lamb” who was sacrificed to redeem human beings from sin. So his death was a symbolic, ritual offering - not suicide.
You may say that 'God could just as easily have waved a magic wand and redeemed mankind ', but it’s the symbolic and emotional effect on mankind - not any effect on God - that is considered to be the purpose of doing it that way.
The crucifixion as ritual sacrifice is a very powerful concept, and one of the reasons for the success of Christianity. ‘Christ sacrificed himself for YOU… and so now you owe him something’. This is the basic message.
Bolding mine. We distinguish between taking one’s own life and gving one’s own life. The martyr who dies for a cause, the soldier who dies for his country, the fireman who dies trying to rescue a child—in such cases we’d say that the person gave his life, but never that he took his life. Gving one’s own life implies unselfishly dying with at least the hope or potential of benefiting someone or something else. Which applies to Jesus, according to the standard understanding of his story.
What about Socrates—would you call his death “suicide”?
This precise point is what I came in to say.
I would also point the OP to Jesus’ own words in John 15:13-- “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”
Jesus died for a principle, and He happened to chose a very good one to the point that the ruler and creator of everything raised him from the dead, and by doing so overcame death.
He just stuck to His guns.
Suicide requires intent. A person who shoots himself with a gun he thought was unloaded killed himself but didn’t commit suicide. A person who goes into a situation knowing he may die as a result, or is almost guaranteed to die, isn’t killing himself even though he knows he’ll probably die. But they’re not doing it just to die.
Sometimes we use the term suicide too liberally, such as when a person does something risky and another person says, “That’s suicide!” Clearly that’s hyperbole.
If Jesus could save souls without dying, would he have? There’s no indication he wouldn’t have. He didn’t die by choice, but as a consequence of his actions knowing that there was no way around it. That’s the difference between martyrdom and suicide.
Another quandary is… What if you don’t want to die but your family is broke and you think the only way out is from your life insurance policy payout. You care more about your family’s survival than your own. So you stage your own death to look like an “accident”. Is that suicide or martyrdom? I’m honestly not sure. I’m sure many people who kill themselves think that the world and/or their loved ones are better off without them and feel like martyrs but they’re ultimately hurting other people in reality.
He sacrificed himself to free us from a penalty that he imposed on us. That’s not really that much of a gift.
“Once you assume a Creator and a plan, it makes us objects in a cruel experiment whereby we are created sick and then commanded to be well.” ~Christopher Hitchens
As an aside you may find a thread I started on this topic several years ago of interest. It explores what you are talking about here (including Jesus going into the desert and being tempted by Satan…was that truly a peril for him or a foregone conclusion before it even started).
So far, there is no prophecy listed in the Bible which is generally accepted by scholars to have been written previous to the events prophesied. Linguistic choices, references to other events, etc. in the writings have always coincided with/followed the happening of the event, rather than when the prophecy was supposedly made.
It’s pretty easy to prophecy the future, when you’re writing in the future.
Minus prophecy and the tale we are told is that Jesus ran into a market, tipped everything over, cussed out a bunch of priests, and then went to hide in the rough part of town. One of his followers decided to turn him in for a reward. After being taken away, for questioning, all of his followers fled town and no one came to make any positive testimony for him in court. When the people of Jerusalem had a chance to spare him, they chose someone else and mocked him as an idiot.
John the Baptist had hundreds of followers and was a notable entity in his time. While unclear exactly who everyone is, it seems that a fairly substantial of Jesus’ following - particularly after his death - was his own family. Peter and John both abandoned the church for St. Paul - a man who successfully able to start a number of churches all around the place, and gather significant sums of money for further expansion.
Jesus died without ever mentioning gender equality, meritocracy, how to safely introduce new people into the Americas without causing plague, drawing a map of the Earth, or any other act which would demonstrate advanced knowledge of the world. There are no Roman records of a man feeding thousands through magic, raising the dead, walking on water, nor turning rivers into wine - feats that would presumably garner some attention.
The Gospels that we have seem to be mostly based on Peter’s testimony of Jesus’ life. But Peter was a follower of John the Baptist and only knew Jesus for a year or two, previous to his death. In that time, Peter never learned much more about the man’s history than that he came from Nazareth. Outside of the events that occured at the Temple and during the Last Supper, he doesn’t seem to have much knowledge about Jesus’ church in general, where he goes when he’s not in Jerusalem, nor what he was doing previous to the passover visit to Jerusalem. He doesn’t seem to have learned from Jesus more than a handful of parables. Overall, there’s no good evidence that he was particularly knowledgeable about the religion nor that he was very faithful to Jesus. After all, he followed from John the Baptist to Jesus to St. Paul. By all accounts, he was easily swayed to new religious leaders. And yet, he is our source of knowledge for everything there is to know about Jesus - but only after having already moved on to follow Paul.
Let’s also not forget that the whole “original sin” thing comes from a work that freely steals bits from Sumerian mythology and mixes it in, without any warning notes. While we are missing a bit of tablet that would coincide with the tale of the serpent, after the creation of the world and before the flood, it should be noted that the Sumerian snake god is known as Ningishzida, which translates to, “Lord of the Good Tree”. And we do know that Sumerian religion also featured a Paradise.
So overall, we have a guy who barely knew Jesus giving a prophecy after the events already occurred, a son of God that wasn’t particularly well respected, has left no evidence of special powers, and a reason for the “suicide” that requires that God plagiarize some other country’s religion.
I’m not, personally, sold on the idea that Jesus went to his death to free us all from Natural Sin. I’m pretty sure he was executed because he made an ass of himself in a temple and the only one who cared enough to do anything about it one way or the other, chose to turn him in to the authorities.
This. Jesus is the worst person in history.
That’s a good point - is it really a suicide (or a sacrifice, even) when you know it’s just going to get retconned ?
Is this true? All the prophecies listed in the Old Testament were all written after the events of Jesus?
I think Jesus knew he had to be martyred. If the Gospels can be taken- well, as Gospel- Jesus did several things solely so it could be said that the prophecies about the Messiah were fulfilled. Even just before his arrest he has his disciples go through the token motions of arming themselves so it could be said that he led a “rebellion” (Luke 22:36-37)
Oh, and “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” is quoting Psalm 22:1, which Jesus would have known.
Or they weren’t really prophesies at all, or they were so vague they could apply to a wide range of events, or they didn’t match up at all despite claims to the contrary.
The one large Christian belief that gets in the way of this suicide stuff is that Jesus didn’t die. He tidied up a few loose ends here and there for a few days, then returned to ascended to heaven. Absent a death, there’s no suicide.