# Is it finally time to do something about North Korea **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2017, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355 "2017-09-14T23:37:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/121 "2017-09-16T15:09:49Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Too much crazy here to fully address. > > The US is in SK because of a UN mandate and to protect our democratic ally. We also serve the economic interests of the region, save NK, by being their. Korea, China and Japan also do not play nice together. We bring stability to the region. The Korean Conflict ended in 1953. Seoul has long since been rebuilt (as has post-WWII Japan) Are we going to stay there forever? Are we going to stay there when our debt-GDP ratio is 300% and through another global recessions caused by American property flippers and subprime lenders? Are we going to be a credible shield then? It doesn’t matter whether Korea, China, and Japan play nice; it’s 2017 not 1957. It’s a different world and while American power will be a force to be reckoned with in the decades to come, it’s a world in which our share of power is most likely in a state of irreversible decline. We have provided stability in the region because others lacked the power to assert their own power. That is changing, and that trend won’t reverse itself unless we’re so hellbent on war that we make a disastrous war inevitable. The US could certainly make that happen, following the Dick Cheney playbook of first-strike aggression. But that would benefit the United States, not her allies, who would find their largest metropolises smouldering and with the stench of dead flesh. Again, what’s the point here? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/122 "2017-09-16T15:12:25Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > It’s easy to stop NK selling nukes. Blocade their ports. If they try the international community will stop them. Islamic separatists attack China often so the Chinese won’t allow this. Man, it’s like smuggling was never a thing. The US has spent decades trying to stop cocaine from coming into their country, without success. What makes you think they’ll be able to stop nuclear material from leaving North Korea? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/123 "2017-09-16T15:18:00Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The Korean Conflict ended in 1953. Seoul has long since been rebuilt (as has post-WWII Japan) Are we going to stay there forever? Are we going to stay there when our debt-GDP ratio is 300% and through another global recessions caused by American property flippers and subprime lenders? Are we going to be a credible shield then? It doesn’t matter whether Korea, China, and Japan play nice; it’s 2017 not 1957. It’s a different world and while American power will be a force to be reckoned with in the decades to come, it’s a world in which our share of power is most likely in a state of irreversible decline. We have provided stability in the region because others lacked the power to assert their own power. That is changing, and that trend won’t reverse itself unless we’re so hellbent on war that we make a disastrous war inevitable. The US could certainly make that happen, following the Dick Cheney playbook of first-strike aggression. But that would benefit the United States, not her allies, who would find their largest metropolises smouldering and with the stench of dead flesh. Again, what’s the point here? The Korean Conflict has not officially ended. By our being in the Penninsula we allow the Japanese to not fully rearm…bringing stability to the region. Three of our largest trading powers are in the region and any instability could throw the worlds economy into chaos. Its in everyone’s interest to have a token US force in the region. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/124 "2017-09-16T15:20:27Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Man, it’s like smuggling was never a thing. > The US has spent decades trying to stop cocaine from coming into their country, without success. What makes you think they’ll be able to stop nuclear material from leaving North Korea? Its a lot easier to spot and track nuclear material than drugs. The Israelis have done a good job of shutting down the importation of arms into Gaza. There is no reason to think an international effort to stop the export of nuke material wouldn’t be successful. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/125 "2017-09-16T15:20:53Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > What regime is left or formed afterwards is not our concern. This strikes me as a particularly short-sighted and stupid thing to say, especially in light of recent US “adventures” in Afghanistan and Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/126 "2017-09-16T15:59:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > If you are saying that, leaving aside all the reasons they won’t, that they categorically couldn’t solve this then you are correct…we disagree. Good, then we’re clear: we disagree > [@](#): > > China certainly COULD solve this issue (if we go into the fantasy of there being a unified China in lockstep and willing to do whatever it took to solve it). They could completely cut off North Korea from any sort of trade at all, interdict their use of forced NK labor and flow of technology and even access from Russia, and could basically bring the regime to its knees if it so chose. If you don’t believe that then feel free to explain why you think China couldn’t solve this issue if we leave aside all the reasons why they can’t and won’t due to their own internal politics and economics. To anyone who subscribes to the view that all we need to do to bring a regime down is make a country poor enough, then my counter to that view is…North Korea. The country is dirt poor now and has been through _famines_ on route to where it is now. No, there is not a happy, well-fed populace who, if conditions get even a smidge worse, will spontaneously, and in lockstep, revolt. You’ll still have the regime, they’ll still have nuclear weapons, you’ll have just have made them more desperate. That’s not what I call a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/127 "2017-09-16T16:02:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > This strikes me as a particularly short-sighted and stupid thing to say, especially in light of recent US “adventures” in Afghanistan and Iraq. I disagree and I’ll tell you why. Our “adventures” failed because we tried to enforce our ways upon them. I see no reason to believe they couldn’t have gone back to their tradional ways of living (sans Saddam). It was our greed and hubris (and short sided stubbornness) in our minds that caused the failure. In other words, it was a failure (to us) because they wouldn’t bent to our will. What’s shortsided and stupid was thinking we could force western customs and democracy on them against their will. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t agree with most of what Okrahoma is espousing here. Nor did I mean to imply (as some have suggested) that saving American cities is more important that saving other non-American cities. More like, now that they are getting within striking distance of the US why shouldn’t we be getting concerned? There is no way to say this without coming across as an asshole but if the countries local to NK chose to let them grow to this power uncontested then they should bear the responsibility for what’s coming. This has been coming for years and they knew it (or should have). It’s not like the history of the US is hidden away somewhere. Speaking of which, how is this situation different from Iraq? Now granted, they didn’t have WMDs but our policy was that they did and must be stopped. If they had had them what would stopped them from using them? The point is if we were willing to use force to stop them from becoming a nuclear power, not NK? > [@HMS](#): > > … but dismissing them as irrational actors is wrongheaded and dangerous. I strongly disagree. He is very provocatively tossing missiles around. How is this not irrational? Having posted all of the above, please don’t read my post as a 'kill ‘em all, let God sort them out’ sentiment. The situation is awful and the best solution is still tragic. I just don’t believe accepting NK into to the nuclear family will have a happy ending. ETA: I didn’t mean to imply I agreed with invading Iraq, I only meant to ask the question - if ok then, why not now. . ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/128 "2017-09-16T16:15:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > To anyone who subscribes to the view that all we need to do to bring a regime down is make a country poor enough, then my counter to that view is…North Korea. > The country is dirt poor now and has been through famines on route to where it is now. And? Do you suppose it might be worse if China were to not only completely stop trade with NK but interdict them? But, really, the key thing here is if China did this it would stop all technology transfer to NK. So, they would be starving AND they wouldn’t be able to keep up the pace of their current missile program. > [@](#): > > No, there is not a happy, well-fed populace who, if conditions get even a smidge worse, will spontaneously, and in lockstep, revolt. Huh? I have no idea what you are getting at with any of this. > [@](#): > > You’ll still have the regime, they’ll still have nuclear weapons, you’ll have just have made them more desperate. That’s not what I call a solution. Again, and? You don’t seem to realize that this would be a solution, of sorts. At some point there is just no way they can continue. China enables the regime. If China actually cut off all trade and interdicted them the regime wouldn’t survive because the nation would collapse. Completely and utterly. I’m not an advocate to this, but you said that China couldn’t do what they pretty obviously could, if they so chose…and you are simply wrong. Now, if your point in all this (and I have to admit, I have no idea what your actual point was in this, to be honest) is that China couldn’t ‘solve the problem’ bloodlessly, well…yeah. They couldn’t. Or that the solution wouldn’t be a humanitarian disaster. Again…yeah, it would be. But to sit there and say (I presume) that they couldn’t solve it is, as noted wrong. All that said, there is zero chance China would do any of this. They have probably gone as far as they are going to go with what they have done to date. I don’t see them doing more, certainly not before the 19th congress is over anyway, and even then I just don’t think they will do more. Nor do I think China getting involved to that extent would be a good thing anyway, for a variety of reasons. I also don’t advocate a US first strike, which would also solve the problem at the cost of 100’s of thousands or even millions of deaths and economic havoc. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/129 "2017-09-16T16:58:37Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I disagree and I’ll tell you why. Our “adventures” failed because we tried to enforce our ways upon them. I see no reason to believe they couldn’t have gone back to their tradional ways of living (sans Saddam). It was our greed and hubris (and short sided stubbornness) in our minds that caused the failure. In other words, it was a failure (to us) because they wouldn’t bent to our will. What’s shortsided and stupid was thinking we could force western customs and democracy on them against their will. It failed because American foreign policy has frankly gotten dumber and dumber with increasingly unqualified analysts in positions of power and influence making disastrous decisions based on analyses that are either flawed, corrupted, or both. That situation hasn’t improved any, nor will it now with the clown who occupies in the White House now. > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > More like, now that they are getting within striking distance of the US why shouldn’t we be getting concerned? There is no way to say this without coming across as an asshole but if the countries local to NK chose to let them grow to this power uncontested then they should bear the responsibility for what’s coming. This has been coming for years and they knew it (or should have). It’s not like the history of the US is hidden away somewhere. Their power hasn’t gone uncontested; it has been contested with crippling sanctions and isolation for a long time now – kinda like Russia. In both cases, it’s fair to ask the same question: how well is our pressure working? Obviously one can’t simply wish the problem away, but it’s inaccurate to say that North Korea hasn’t been challenged in the same way Russia, Cuba, and others have. > [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I strongly disagree. He is very provocatively tossing missiles around. How is this not irrational? . North Korea’s not the only country with nuclear weapons, not the only country to test them, and not the only country to test missiles. North Korea is testing its weapons program in much the same way that China under Mao back in the 1960s. It wants the United States military to respect its nuclear weapons and missile capabilities. It’s also quite possible that it took a look at Saddam Hussein and said “That’s not gonna be me.” I agree that the Kim regime is one of the most horrible and inhumane on the planet, but all of that aside, I don’t see their militaristic behavior as “crazy” or “irrational” at all when you view it through the wider lens of global politics. What NK is doing is dangerous but not at all irrational or crazy. It’s risky because it challenges a world military superpower that does not want to see it further its military capabilities, and because said superpower has a history of trying to overthrow regimes that challenge its claims to regional supremacy. Yes, it’s dangerous in that it potentially leads the United States to conclude that a more militarily capable North Korean state, whatever its intentions, is a risk that it cannot live with. But again, if the United States launches a preventative war, or preemptive war, or whatever we want to call it, the consequences would likely be very bad for years to come. This is why HMS Irruncible is right. There is a danger in attributing the qualities of “irrationality” or “insanity”. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/130 "2017-09-16T17:19:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > During the intervention, what’s to stop NK from nuking SK or Japan with the missile tech they already have? As I already said, I don’t think SK has the technology down yet to do that. We have a window right now. It is closing fast. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/131 "2017-09-16T17:29:17Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > As I already said, I don’t think SK has the technology down yet to do that. We have a window right now. It is closing fast. Whether you think so or not, NK has short and medium range missiles, and they have nukes, and while ICBMs and reaching the continental US are outside of their capability right now, you’ve presented no reason to believe that hitting SK or Japan is. But I’ll ask it slightly differently. If you believed NK had a high chance of successfully nuking SK or Japan, would you still advocate for military action? ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/132 "2017-09-16T17:33:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Whether you think so or not, NK has short and medium range missiles, and they have nukes, and while ICBMs and reaching the continental US are outside of their capability right now, you’ve presented no reason to believe that hitting SK or Japan is. > > But I’ll ask it slightly differently. If you believed NK had a high chance of successfully nuking SK or Japan, would you still advocate for military action? Japan - no, and I am pretty sure NK has no capability of striking Japan in any way accurately, yet. SK - yes. And the reason is, SK has watched NK grow more and more nuclear and more and more belligerent for decades and procrastinated on that to this point, where NK is on the verge of endangering the US. So quite a bit of the blame is on them. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/133 "2017-09-16T17:52:29Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Japan - no, and I am pretty sure NK has no capability of striking Japan in any way accurately, yet. SK - yes. And the reason is, SK has watched NK grow more and more nuclear and more and more belligerent for decades and procrastinated on that to this point, where NK is on the verge of endangering the US. So quite a bit of the blame is on them. I see no reason to believe with any high likelihood that they couldn’t hit Japan. And accuracy isn’t nearly as important with nukes – Japan is pretty densely populated; even a random hit on their northern islands would likely kill tens or hundreds of thousands, if not more. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/134 "2017-09-16T18:05:25Z")
The US has been the “police” of the world since WWII. How many more American citizens have to die before we finally realize what a bad idea this is? Kim and Don remind me of two dogs snarling at each other. If there is a war it’ll be Trump’s fault not Kim’s. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/135 "2017-09-16T18:12:12Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > As I already said, I don’t think SK has the technology down yet to do that. We have a window right now. It is closing fast. Are the air defenses sufficient to stop a fighter-bomber on a suicide run? I’m really hoping the answer is yes… But, y’know, Matthias Rust and all that… ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/136 "2017-09-16T18:14:41Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Japan - no, and I am pretty sure NK has no capability of striking Japan in any way accurately, yet. SK - yes. And the reason is, SK has watched NK grow more and more nuclear and more and more belligerent for decades and procrastinated on that to this point, where NK is on the verge of endangering the US. So quite a bit of the blame is on them. By the way, the implication that nuking SK would somehow be more acceptable because they didn’t start a war before they developed nukes strikes me as morally abominable. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/137 "2017-09-16T18:50:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I see no reason to believe with any high likelihood that they couldn’t hit Japan. And accuracy isn’t nearly as important with nukes – Japan is pretty densely populated; even a random hit on their northern islands would likely kill tens or hundreds of thousands, if not more. You both are kind of right and kind of wrong here. You are right…they almost certainly have short and medium range missiles that could hit Japan (Guam too). You are right, they have at least a handful (at most) of nukes that have been miniaturized sufficiently to allow them to be put on those missiles. They would, however, have to get REALLY lucky to actually have those missiles launch (get off the pad), get through the South Korean and US missile defenses then get through the US and Japanese defenses and, finally, actually hit a high value target in proximity to do some damage AND work. There is so much that could go wrong in this that I wouldn’t even know how to calculate the probability of a successful detonation somewhere in Japan. South Korea would be a bit less problematic, but still an issue. They have a better chance of hitting cities in South Korea with one of their few working nuclear tipped missiles, but even there I wouldn’t think 50/50 would be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/138 "2017-09-16T19:26:33Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > The US has been the “police” of the world since WWII. How many more American citizens have to die before we finally realize what a bad idea this is? > Kim and Don remind me of two dogs snarling at each other. If there is a war it’ll be Trump’s fault not Kim’s. It’s not about policing the world. It’s about protecting ourselves from this very well armed bully and I believe crazy man. Have you read the news lately. The situation is dire and scary as hell but that doesn’t mean burying your head in the sand will save us. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/139 "2017-09-16T20:36:43Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > It’s not about policing the world. It’s about protecting ourselves from this very well armed bully and I believe crazy man. Have you read the news lately. > > The situation is dire and scary as hell but that doesn’t mean burying your head in the sand will save us. Which well-armed bully are we talking about now? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355/140 "2017-09-16T21:03:28Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Which well-armed bully are we talking about now? The one which has no self awareness. What is most scary is to know so openly how ready certain americans are to send other peoples to nuclear hell. it does not take any sympathy for the north korean regime to see the acts of the regime leadership as being quite logical to protect themselves against the americans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-finally-time-to-do-something-about-north-korea/796355.md?page=8)