# Is it futile to discuss 9/11 with truthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016 "2015-12-21T18:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/1 "2015-12-21T18:14:31Z")
I just found out that a couple of my band mates believe the US destroyed the World Trade Center. Has anyone ever “turned” a truther or is that just a hopeless cause? Is the best policy is to just not talk about it, or is there a simple argument that works? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/2 "2015-12-21T18:23:32Z")
Beyond the entertainment value of mocking them and manipulating them into making comically nonsensical statements, I’d say the discussion was pretty useless, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/3 "2015-12-21T18:24:46Z")
Based on what I have seen on this forum, it is about as futile an enterprise as you will find. It can be amusing at times, but ultimately fruitless. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/4 "2015-12-21T18:26:23Z")
They’re up there with anti-vaxxers. Don’t waste your breath. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/5 "2015-12-21T18:28:08Z")
It’s usually futile to discuss anything with truthers. You wouldn’t be calling them truthers if they had expressed any rational thought on subject. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/6 "2015-12-21T18:28:29Z")
Years and years ago, I was able to convince someone with the argument “So you think Bush, the guy who bungled the Iraq invasion, was enough of a mastermind to pull off this attack?” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/7 "2015-12-21T18:39:32Z")
I think there are two flavors: the first pays little attention to current events, but somehow ran across Loose Change and it made a big impression. This is just like a 10 year old who sees Star Wars and becomes convinced that the Force must be real. These people could learn, but you have to first get beyond the hurdle of “the truth is often a lot more ordinary than you wish it to be.” The second flavor is every other kind of Truther – the conspiracy theorists, the mentally ill, those who are convinced they are smarter than the King of Harvard because of all the time they spend on the Internet, and so on. Don’t bother. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/8 "2015-12-21T18:46:47Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > Years and years ago, I was able to convince someone with the argument “So you think Bush, the guy who bungled the Iraq invasion, was enough of a mastermind to pull off this attack?” _Cheney_ was the mastermind behind 9/11. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/9 "2015-12-21T18:55:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think there are two flavors: the first pays little attention to current events, but somehow ran across Loose Change and it made a big impression. This is just like a 10 year old who sees Star Wars and becomes convinced that the Force must be real. These people could learn, but you have to first get beyond the hurdle of “the truth is often a lot more ordinary than you wish it to be.” > > The second flavor is every other kind of Truther – the conspiracy theorists, the mentally ill, those who are convinced they are smarter than the King of Harvard because of all the time they spend on the Internet, and so on. Don’t bother. I think there are 2 that are the first flavor and only 1 second flavor. But, I don’t plan on doing a taste test to verify. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/10 "2015-12-21T18:56:47Z")
There’s a difference between a guy who saw a video once and it seemed convincing to him, and we know the government does horrible stuff all the time, so it stands to reason, blah blah blah, and a guy who comes on the dope to post links to Loose Changed. People can be educated, sometimes. It depends on the reasons they believe things. If they’re emotionally attached to their belief, then no it is not possible to argue them out of something they weren’t argued into. But the easiest thing to ask is what happens when a blacksmith heats up metal. A steel bar doesn’t have to melt or even glow red hot before it can be bent much more easily. A blacksmith can bend a bar into a horseshoe after it’s been sitting in an ordinary fire, because the hot steel is much weaker than room temperature steel. Another thing is to show someone a video of a building that implodes, and show them how they blow the bottom of the building, and it looks like the whole more or less intact building is falling into a hole in the ground. Then show the video of the WTC towers collapsing, and how the collapse starts at the airplane impact sites. Point out that buildings don’t fall over like trees because the forces holding the building together are a lot weaker compared to gravity. You don’t need a lot of force to collapse a tall building because the building is already doing a lot of work just holding itself up against gravity. Another is to contrast the inept behavior of the Bush administration post-9/11 with the three-dimensional chessmasters who would have pulled off the greatest hoax in history. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/11 "2015-12-21T19:20:44Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > I just found out that a couple of my band mates believe the US destroyed the World Trade Center. > > Has anyone ever “turned” a truther or is that just a hopeless cause? Is the best policy is to just not talk about it, or is there a simple argument that works? Well, from what I recall some of the Loose Change idiots eventually had to change their tune on a few things, somewhat, as they were looking like complete idiots spouting stuff that had already been debunked. They didn’t do a complete 180, but they did eventually change some aspects of their ridiculous narrative. So, in that sense, argument does some good. It also helps folks on the fence, or who just don’t care enough to really dig in. Slick little pieces of crap like Loose Change can be compelling and convincing since you don’t need to think that much, and they lead you by the nose to the ‘answer’…the one they want to give. Combating that narrative with the facts can often be frustrating to the true faithful, but I think the vast majority are just ignorant folks who saw a video, and THEY can be convinced. Some of them, at least. It comes down to whether you enjoy debating with people who have nutty and often stupid ideas, and you feel like knowledge and truth are more important than just letting things go and letting ignorance spread. The flip side of that coin is you don’t have to always argue with everyone about everything. Just because they are wrong, doesn’t mean you have to be the one to educate them. Personally, I love a good fight, and love sarcastically busting people’s bubbles on things like 9/11 Truther nonsense. It’s a pretty target rich environment to heap scorn and sarcasm onto some idiot espousing the various ‘theories’, and you can really make someone look stupid. Often, making someone look like complete and total idiots does more good than anything else, since people don’t generally want to be on the side of the folks who look really stupid (ok, so, that doesn’t seem to be working wrt the Republican party this election cycle, but it’s a general rule of thumb :p). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/12 "2015-12-21T19:27:43Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I think there are two flavors: the first pays little attention to current events, but somehow ran across Loose Change and it made a big impression. This is just like a 10 year old who sees Star Wars and becomes convinced that the Force must be real. These people could learn, but you have to first get beyond the hurdle of “the truth is often a lot more ordinary than you wish it to be.” > > The second flavor is every other kind of Truther – the conspiracy theorists, the mentally ill, those who are convinced they are smarter than the King of Harvard because of all the time they spend on the Internet, and so on. Don’t bother. FWIW, I encountered exactly one person on the IMDb boards who pretty much went from a Type 2 to a Type 1. She’s still a Truther but no longer buys into Alex Jones, et al. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/13 "2015-12-21T19:34:59Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, from what I recall some of the Loose Change idiots eventually had to change their tune on a few things, somewhat, as they were looking like complete idiots spouting stuff that had already been debunked. They didn’t do a complete 180, but they did eventually change some aspects of their ridiculous narrative. So, in that sense, argument does some good. It also helps folks on the fence, or who just don’t care enough to really dig in. Slick little pieces of crap like Loose Change can be compelling and convincing since you don’t need to think that much, and they lead you by the nose to the ‘answer’…the one they want to give. Combating that narrative with the facts can often be frustrating to the true faithful, but I think the vast majority are just ignorant folks who saw a video, and THEY can be convinced. Some of them, at least. Dylan Avery has been distancing himself from the Truth Movement now that he doesn’t have to depend on a conspiracy theorist for the financial backing of more Loose Change videos. Combine this with the fact that he started out with a purely fictional narrative and one suspects that he didn’t really believe what he was putting out in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/14 "2015-12-21T19:54:08Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > _Cheney_ was the mastermind behind 9/11. That sneaky bastard! You know, I never trusted him… and now I know why. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/15 "2015-12-21T20:48:36Z")
I generally think I owe it to the world to tell my truther friends that they are nuts and spend 2-3 minutes on it. At that point, I tell them I’m not going to debate it, and change the subject. People take silence as concurrence more often than not, and I don’t want them to think they have more allies than they do. I hope (against hope I guess) that if they get enough ‘no’ votes that they will change their minds. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/16 "2015-12-21T22:08:21Z")
You could try this tactic (xkcd) > **[Jet Fuel](https://xkcd.com/966/)** > > The 'controlled demolition' theory was concocted by the government to distract us. '9/11 was an inside job' was an inside job! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/17 "2015-12-22T06:52:23Z")
The only thing I find weird is how that third building, which hadnt been hit, also collapsed. I know it was from all the vibrations and I’m not saying conspiracy or anything but it still seems odd. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/18 "2015-12-22T07:27:15Z")
You could try this: [If Cheney & Co. Had Really Plotted The 9/11 Attacks](http://www.alternet.org/story/85723/if_cheney_%26_co._had_really_plotted_the_9_11_attacks_...) by Matt Taibbi. > [@](#): > > The whole narrative of the [9/11 Truth] movement is so completely and utterly retarded, it boggles the mind. It’s like something cooked up by a bunch of teenagers raised on texting, TV and Sports Illustrated who just saw V For Vendetta for the first time and decided to write a Penguin History of the World on the strength of it. A genius on the order of a Mozart or a Shakespeare would be hard-pressed to dream up the awesome comedy that is the alleged plot from the point of view of the plotters. If there was such a conspiracy, remember, something like the following conversation would have had to have taken place: > > _\_ > > Cheney: The point, Paul, is that the American empire as we know it will collapse within 20-30 years unless we find massive new supplies of oil and find them fast. By 2010 we’re going to need to find fifty million additional barrels of oil per day. And there’s only one place where we can get that much oil … > > Kristol: Sweden! > > Feith: Of course. Let’s invade! I hate those goddamn speed-skaters anyway. > > Cheney: No, you assholes, not Sweden. Iraq. It’s the only major oil-rich state whose reserves haven’t been mostly exploited. There’s probably seven million barrels a day minimum just sitting in those fields – and the worst thing is, unless we get in there soon, it’s all going to go to the French, the Russians and the Germans, since Saddam will sell to all of them long before he deals with us, assuming his UN sanctions get lifted at some point. > > Wolfowitz: My God. > > Cheney: So it’s clear we’ve got to get in there. Are we agreed on this? > > All: Agreed. > > Cheney: All right. Well, I’ve got a plan. > > Wolfowitz: We get George elected in 2000 and go in, right? Tell the public Saddam’s in violation of his UN restrictions or some shit like that? He is anyway, isn’t he? > > Cheney: No, that would never work. The public would never stand for it.(Everyone bursts out laughing) > > Cheney: Seriously. > > Wolfowitz: Oh, wait – you’re serious? > > Cheney: Absolutely. No, I think the way to go is to cook up some kind of justification. Something that will really get the public behind the invasion … > > Feith: I know! We go to the UN, show bogus photos of Saddam’s secret store of chemical and biological weapons, evidence of his nuclear weapons program. Tell the world he’s planning to attack. > > Cheney: No. Not emotional enough. I mean something really hot … > > Kristol: It could be a human-rights thing. Some emergency, like he’s gassing Kurds again or something. That worked for Clinton in Kosovo. I mean, who gave a shit about Albanians, right? I wouldn’t know an Albanian if I caught one in bed with my wife. But that whole rape-camp thing was good enough by a mile to start that war. > > Cheney: No, no, that’s not vivid enough, not Band of Brothers enough. We need the people all lathered up, their mouths full of spittle, howling for blood, like pit bulls. You guys need to think to scale, think big, think like Michael Bay. > > Feith: Michael Bay, Jesus. Okay, okay, what, then? > > Cheney: We bomb the World Trade Center. Read the whole thing. It’s hilarious! And he’s right. The whole conspiracy idea is so sublimely ridiculous that the only sane thing to do is laugh at it. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/19 "2015-12-22T07:50:32Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The only thing I find weird is how that third building, which hadnt been hit, also collapsed. I know it was from all the vibrations and I’m not saying conspiracy or anything but it still seems odd. The “vibrations” were huge parts of a burning building falling in to it. It wasn’t the only other building destroyed. The World Trade Center was a complex of seven buildings. A church across the street was also destroyed, and another high rise office building was so severely damaged that it had to be demolished. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/20 "2015-12-22T08:44:19Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The only thing I find weird is how that third building, which hadnt been hit, also collapsed. I know it was from all the vibrations and I’m not saying conspiracy or anything but it still seems odd. Truthers try to have it both ways. They say it was suspicious that the Twin Towers fell into their own footprint and they also say it was suspicious that other buildings were damaged or destroyed even though nothing hit them. But the truth is that those two problems cancel each other out: the Twin Towers did not collapse neatly like a planned demolition, as evidenced by the amount of damage the collapse did to other nearby buildings. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=2)