# Is it futile to discuss 9/11 with truthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016 "2015-12-21T18:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/21 "2015-12-22T11:52:15Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Truthers try to have it both ways. They say it was suspicious that the Twin Towers fell into their own footprint and they also say it was suspicious that other buildings were damaged or destroyed even though nothing hit them. But the truth is that those two problems cancel each other out: the Twin Towers did not collapse neatly like a planned demolition, as evidenced by the amount of damage the collapse did to other nearby buildings. Yeah, kind of like how an earthquakes shaking can cause a building to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Deu5Vult](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/22 "2015-12-22T13:14:12Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yeah, kind of like how an earthquakes shaking can cause a building to fall. You can find a final report on the collapse of 7 WTC in the below link: [http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/wtc\_finalreports.cfm](http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/wtc_finalreports.cfm) The collapse was fire-induced and had nothing to do with vibrations. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/23 "2015-12-22T15:01:23Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > A church across the street was also destroyed, and another high rise office building was so severely damaged that it had to be demolished. As was a 15-story CUNY building. A significant portion of 7 crossed Broadway and fell on it. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/24 "2015-12-22T15:11:30Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#): > > The collapse was fire-induced and had nothing to do with vibrations. Some facts to keep in mind: The entire complex, being owned by the Port Authority, was exempt from building & fire codes. 7 was built on a site that had been prepped for a building with a much smaller footprint, leaving the southern façade with no direct ground contact. It had to be cantilevered out. Directly under 7 was a ConEd station with two huge fuel tanks. More fuel tanks were scattered throughout the building. One floor (5, IIRC) had so much electronic equipment that it was not covered by the sprinkler system. The sprinkler system shouldn’t have been working too well, anyway, due to all the firefighting in the area earlier that day and being severed by the impact by debris from 1. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/25 "2015-12-22T16:43:12Z")
Yeah, you gotta love the retarded Builidng 7 logic. Like, the whole attack was just a smokescreen so they could demolish Building 7. Uh, why do they need to demolish Building 7? I mean, if there’s secret plans there, just send your team to shred the secret plans. You don’t need to secretly do secret stuff, you control the government, the government can openly do secret stuff. “We’re moving these big boxes of equipment.” “Why?” “Can’t tell you. It’s secret.” “OK.” And scene. Or how about just not put all your secret evidence in a high-rise building at the World Trade Center? What’s wrong with Area 51? Or Area 51a? Plenty of room for secret projects there. At least when the Illuminati blow up the WTC to trick America into attacking Iraq, there’s a story there. I mean, if I were an Illuminatus I’d make the hiackers Iraqi if the goal is to invade Iraq, but whatever. But destroying WTC7? That’s your plan? That’s the mission that must be accomplished no matter that thousands of people have to die in a very public and brutal fashion? When you want to quietly get rid of evidence, why not just quietly get rid of evidence? Getting rid of evidence by blowing up the building the evidence is contained in seems very risky to me. What if some of the evidence is left over in the wreckage? Now you’ve got to track down and murder all sorts of random firemen and construction workers. It’s a logistical nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/26 "2015-12-22T16:57:45Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > I just found out that a couple of my band mates believe the US destroyed the World Trade Center. > > Has anyone ever “turned” a truther or is that just a hopeless cause? Is the best policy is to just not talk about it, or is there a simple argument that works? Maybe you’re the lost cause? I don’t think “the US” did anything. I do know the US invaded - because of a small cohort of raving lunatics - a whole country on a false pretext and most of the USA bought into that. I do know Oliver North and Iran/Contra happened. I do know the whole nation was/is illegally under surveillance and no one spoke out. I do know elements in Saudi Arabia and elements of power in the US have a deep and longstanding relationship based on mutual interests. I do know Saudi Arabia got zero backdraft for 9/11. And that’s a little of what we do know, sometimes due to someone occasionally speaking out on a random topic. It will be the top of the iceberg. Could there have been some degree of facilitation by an elite? The people of the US have been manipulated by conspiracies as big. It ain’t no thing to some people. That’s all we know. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/27 "2015-12-22T17:04:22Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The only thing I find weird is how that third building, which hadnt been hit, also collapsed. I know it was from all the vibrations and I’m not saying conspiracy or anything but it still seems odd. You’ve already gotten a couple of explanations, but I’d like to add: When the two towers collapsed, the first avalanche-like wave took out the floor joists and perimeter columns, but left much of the large core columns standing - you can see them in the videos, standing for just a few seconds. But the core columns depended on the rest of the building to keep them vertical - without that, there was not enough sideways support to hold them upright and they fell too. There were core columns sticking up 50 or 60 stories tall immediately after the collapses. Some of the columns from the North Tower fell over and struck building 7, leaving a large gouge in the south face. At the same time, fires started in building 7 and the sprinklers didn’t work because there was no water pressure. The fire department elected not to fight it, and knew that it would collapse, which it did after burning for several hours. Given all that, it’s not weird at all that it collapsed. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/28 "2015-12-22T17:38:45Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Maybe you’re the lost cause? Yeah, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that given the fact that you’ve provided absolutely nothing in terms of an argument supporting the idea that 9/11 was an inside job, that’s probably not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/29 "2015-12-22T17:48:56Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Could there have been some degree of facilitation by an elite? This is what we call "JAQ"ing off(JAQ=Just Asking Questions), in which a person looks as if they are asking a question, but in reality is open only to responses that support an already formed opinion. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/30 "2015-12-22T17:52:11Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Maybe you’re the lost cause? > > I don’t think “the US” did anything. I do know the US invaded - because of a small cohort of raving lunatics - a whole country on a false pretext and most of the USA bought into that. I do know Oliver North and Iran/Contra happened. I do know the whole nation was/is illegally under surveillance and no one spoke out. I do know elements in Saudi Arabia and elements of power in the US have a deep and longstanding relationship based on mutual interests. I do know Saudi Arabia got zero backdraft for 9/11. > > And that’s a little of what we do know, sometimes due to someone occasionally speaking out on a random topic. It will be the top of the iceberg. > > Could there have been some degree of facilitation by an elite? > > The people of the US have been manipulated by conspiracies as big. It ain’t no thing to some people. That’s all we know. No one’s disputing that the government (or at least some people in government) can, and has, done evil and underhanded things. They’re disputing this one specific thing, based on a total lack of evidence combined with the ludicrous plot that we’d have to believe in. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/31 "2015-12-22T17:52:32Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Maybe you’re the lost cause? > > I don’t think “the US” did anything. I do know the US invaded - because of a small cohort of raving lunatics - a whole country on a false pretext and most of the USA bought into that. I do know Oliver North and Iran/Contra happened. I do know the whole nation was/is illegally under surveillance and no one spoke out. I do know elements in Saudi Arabia and elements of power in the US have a deep and longstanding relationship based on mutual interests. I do know Saudi Arabia got zero backdraft for 9/11. > > And that’s a little of what we do know, sometimes due to someone occasionally speaking out on a random topic. It will be the top of the iceberg. > > Could there have been some degree of facilitation by an elite? > > The people of the US have been manipulated by conspiracies as big. It ain’t no thing to some people. That’s all we know. So, you give a ranting list of things you supposedly do know about and then imply that, because some things happened that means it’s plausible that the US really did it? Despite the lack of evidence, your evidence is ‘well, the US did other things so, there you go, you lost cause you’?? 😛 Yeah, pretty compelling. I’m militantly shocked that, along with your other positions you are also a closet 9/11 Truther type…or, at least a 9/11 JAQer. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/32 "2015-12-22T18:54:20Z")
Saddam Hussein gassed the Kurds, invaded Iran, conquered Kuwait, tortured and murdered political opponents. So he must have had a nuclear weapons program, with all the bad stuff we know he did he’s bound to have done the bad stuff he was accused of doing even though the evidence that he had a nuclear weapons program is sadly lacking. It just stands to reason that a horrible person like Saddam would have done other horrible things, including this one particular horrible thing that it turned out there’s no evidence that he did. But he probably did it anyway, because he was horrible. So, since Dick Cheney is a horrible person, he must have been behind 9/11. It just stands to reason that someone like him who has done some evil stuff must have done this particular evil thing, even though there’s no evidence he did. He’s evil, right? Connect the dots! ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/33 "2015-12-22T19:57:25Z")
The memo that some say gave Cheney authority over DoD that day? It also enables that authority to be bypassed in case of extreme emergency. If four hijacked jetliners being used as missiles necessitating the grounding of all civilian aircraft isn’t an extreme emergency, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/34 "2015-12-22T20:40:25Z")
Logic can’t melt dank memes. Thankfully, the CT Is stupider than it could have been, which limits its spread. It has a nice start: PNAC said they needed a Pearl Harbor, and what do you know, a couple years later they get one. But then you get to the part where the towers fell not because of planes, but because of thermite charges. Wait…wut? It would make more sense if the actual hijackers brought down the buildings but were funded and organized by the CIA or Mossad (whether the hijackers themselves knew this or not), not that they were just for show. That’s bananas. Or if not airplanes, why not just have a bigger, better bomb like the '90s attack? Not as flashy, perhaps, but they wouldn’t have to worry about internet detectives unraveling their whole scene. Appealing to Bush’s incompetence shouldn’t work, since the supposed CT goes back to the '90s, and he was just a puppet for the elite anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/35 "2015-12-22T21:01:44Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Or if not airplanes, why not just have a bigger, better bomb like the '90s attack? Reportedly, the problem with that bomb was being parked too far from any supports. The same bomb parked directly against a support should have brought down one, if not both, Towers. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/36 "2015-12-22T21:16:52Z")
9-11 Truthers Bush Derangement Syndrome Obama birthers Trump haters Ardent feminists Black Lives Matter groups Fox New Haters They come from both sides of the political aisle. Hear only what they want, believe only what they want, and no matter what you tell them it is wrong and incorrect. They all rely on data and news from exceptionally bias sources. Is futile to talk to any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/37 "2015-12-22T21:31:27Z")
The key word is “truther”. Someone who has fervently bought into the conspiracy angle is extremely unlikely to be swayed by facts, no matter how overwhelmingly and convincingly presented. A person who is troubled by a particular claim but who has critical thinking skills is capable of listening to a solid explanation and changing their mind. Truthers - no way. Similarly, antivaxers, Holocaust deniers, antifluoride fanatics and anti-GMOers are virtually impervious to reality, and arguing with them (beyond amusement value) is useless.\* \*on rare occasion, extreme self-interest can win out. For example, an antivaxer bitten by a rabid animal _might_ just allow herself to receive rabies vaccine. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/38 "2015-12-22T21:33:44Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > 9-11 Truthers > Bush Derangement Syndrome > Obama birthers > Trump haters > Ardent feminists > Black Lives Matter groups > Fox New Haters > > They come from both sides of the political aisle. Hear only what they want, believe only what they want, and no matter what you tell them it is wrong and incorrect. They all rely on data and news from exceptionally bias sources. > > Is futile to talk to any of them. Trump haters? Black Lives Matter? Fox News Haters? lol I’ll give you Bush Derangement Syndrome because there were a few on the left who believed that Bush was going to usher in some sort of permanent right-wing theocracy; but disliking Trump, criticizing Fox News, and complaining about the devaluing of black lives do not belong on your list. Ardent Feminists is too fuzzy a term. It may or may not belong on the list depending on how you’re defining it. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/39 "2015-12-22T21:50:39Z")
There is inner peace to be had at the realization that you can’t change _anybody’s_ mind. About _anything_. Only they can do that. Given that the only person who could change a given person’s mind is that person, it follows that if a person is emotionally invested in not changing their mind, they’re not going to change their mind. I submit truthers are invested in not changing their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/40 "2015-12-22T21:53:13Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > 9-11 Truthers > Bush Derangement Syndrome > Obama birthers > Trump haters > Ardent feminists > Black Lives Matter groups > Fox New Haters > > They come from both sides of the political aisle. Hear only what they want, believe only what they want, and no matter what you tell them it is wrong and incorrect. They all rely on data and news from exceptionally bias sources. > > Is futile to talk to any of them. You forgot Fence Sitters and Water Muddiers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=3)