# Is it futile to discuss 9/11 with truthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016 "2015-12-21T18:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/41 "2015-12-22T21:56:46Z")
I’ve seen more than a few truthers change their mind, usually over time. Some were borderline neutral at first, some just grew up, a few, in their own words, just ‘stopped smoking so much damn pot’. THe end of the Bush administration made a lot of folks grow up, the remainder tend to be mpore die-hard CTers. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/42 "2015-12-22T22:04:09Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > 9-11 Truthers > Bush Derangement Syndrome > Obama birthers > Trump haters > Ardent feminists > Black Lives Matter groups > Fox New Haters I’d grant the first three, but the rest of your list betrays your own biases. I’m willing to entertain, though, that while _some_ people who hate Trump and are pro-feminist, etc. take it to an irrational extreme, their basic premises aren’t flawed. “Bush Derangement Syndrome” isn’t even specifically about Bush - some segment of the American population will always view the president with irrational suspicion, regardless of who the president actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/43 "2015-12-22T22:25:47Z")
> [@bup](#): > > There is inner peace to be had at the realization that you can’t change _anybody’s_ mind. > > About _anything_. > > Only they can do that. > > Given that the only person who could change a given person’s mind is that person, it follows that if a person is emotionally invested in not changing their mind, they’re not going to change their mind. > > I submit truthers are invested in not changing their minds. What would it take to convince you otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/44 "2015-12-22T22:32:50Z")
Tree fiddy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Accident](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Mr.Accident](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Accident)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/45 "2015-12-22T22:36:44Z")
I was once a “truther”. I spread the word of how Bush was behind 9/11, how it was all a conspiracy, how jet fuel couldn’t melt steel beams, etc. In fact, I came to the SDMB to challenge the lot of you to just try to disprove it. After all, I was well armed with my research, and the truth™ was on my side! Much to my surprise when I got here I found a megathread on the topic already. I decided to read that thread before I made any posts about it. To my shock, there were actually well reasoned, well thought out arguments rebutting every point I had. Backed up with actual facts and research! I hadn’t seen such things on other boards before. By the time I had finished the thread, I had stopped being a truther. Logic and science had finally won that battle. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/46 "2015-12-23T02:37:02Z")
Yes, futile, save for the sake of amusement. For fun, jump right in and escalate. If they’re on about CGI planes, escalate with “it’s all CGI, even the buildings. The WTC itself is a myth.” ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/47 "2015-12-23T02:43:15Z")
Kudos to **Mr. Accident** for bowing to logic and reason! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/48 "2015-12-23T05:03:36Z")
> [@Mr.Accident](#): > > I was once a “truther”. Why were you a “truther” back then? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/49 "2015-12-23T06:02:01Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > 9-11 Truthers > Bush Derangement Syndrome > Obama birthers > Trump haters > Ardent feminists > Black Lives Matter groups > Fox New Haters > > They come from both sides of the political aisle. Hear only what they want, believe only what they want, and no matter what you tell them it is wrong and incorrect. They all rely on data and news from exceptionally bias sources. > > Is futile to talk to any of them. …Would you care to explain how Trump and Fox News haters belong in the same list as the truthers and birthers? Like, honestly, we had a very long thread about the latter, where the general consensus was, “Yes, Fox news _really is_ that bad,” because it _kept doing bad things_; and Trump really is that bad, so I’m not sure how this comes from “only hearing what they want”. What, is it _wrong_ to claim that Trump is essentially a racist populist who appeals to and furthers the goals of white nationalists and radical islamophobes? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/50 "2015-12-23T06:03:11Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You’ve already gotten a couple of explanations, but I’d like to add: > > When the two towers collapsed, the first avalanche-like wave took out the floor joists and perimeter columns, but left much of the large core columns standing - you can see them in the videos, standing for just a few seconds. But the core columns depended on the rest of the building to keep them vertical - without that, there was not enough sideways support to hold them upright and they fell too. There were core columns sticking up 50 or 60 stories tall immediately after the collapses. > > Some of the columns from the North Tower fell over and struck building 7, leaving a large gouge in the south face. At the same time, fires started in building 7 and the sprinklers didn’t work because there was no water pressure. The fire department elected not to fight it, and knew that it would collapse, which it did after burning for several hours. > > Given all that, it’s not weird at all that it collapsed. Yes the insights were very interesting. Ok, thing is a person can be interested and curious about a subject, and even have some questions about it, and still not be a truther or conspiracy nut. I am such a case. Yes, I know the building fell thru “natural” causes. But I am not a structural engineer or architect so I am, or should I say WAS, unfamiliar with those. But now I’ve gotten more info I know better. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/51 "2015-12-23T08:37:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > 😛 Yeah, pretty compelling. I’m militantly shocked that, along with your other positions you are also a closet 9/11 Truther type…or, at least a 9/11 JAQer. What are you talking about - in English, please. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/52 "2015-12-23T09:02:47Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > What are you talking about - in English, please. I think it’s being suggested that you either believe in truther conspiracies or are open to them, given your expressed views that governments do bad stuff, therefore it is possible that 9/11 was the government doing bad stuff, regardless of any physical evidence present or absent at the scene which would support such. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/53 "2015-12-23T09:09:04Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I think it’s being suggested that you either believe in truther conspiracies or are open to them, given your expressed views that governments do bad stuff, therefore it is possible that 9/11 was the government doing bad stuff, regardless of any physical evidence present or absent at the scene which would support such. That’s helpful, thanks. Yep, I would classify Iran/Contra, mass surveillance and invasion of Iraq on bogus pretexts as bad stuff. And as conspiracies. In relation to ‘truther conspiracies’ is that phrase used in a pejorative, catch-all judgmental way, or in a way that acknowledges ongoing intellectually curious? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/54 "2015-12-23T09:26:01Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > That’s helpful, thanks. Yep, I would classify Iran/Contra, mass surveillance and invasion of Iraq on bogus pretexts as bad stuff. And as conspiracies. > > In relation to ‘truther conspiracies’ is that phrase used in a pejorative, catch-all judgmental way, or in a way that acknowledges ongoing intellectually curious? The distinction is that Iran/Contra, mass surveillance and trumping up evidence to support an Iraq invasion are all based on plausible mechanics, i.e. none of them require purely fictional technologies or thousands upon thousands of conspirators all managing to keep their mouths shut (and obviously someone couldn’t do so, since we heard about them). Talk to a 9/11 truther for five minutes and you’re likely to hear about untraceable thermite, holographic planes, invisible detonators, and the involvement of virtually the entire staff of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and hundreds of members of the military and executive branch. No matter what you might think the U.S. Government is capable of, what would be required for them to be involved in the attack quickly becomes so massive and convoluted that 19 Muslims hijacking and crashing planes ends up being the only plausible story and insisting otherwise is being determinedly foolish. ---
**Author:** ![Deu5Vult](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/55 "2015-12-23T09:45:04Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > That’s helpful, thanks. Yep, I would classify Iran/Contra, mass surveillance and invasion of Iraq on bogus pretexts as bad stuff. And as conspiracies. > > In relation to ‘truther conspiracies’ is that phrase used in a pejorative, catch-all judgmental way, or in a way that acknowledges ongoing intellectually curious? So what does any of that have to do with 911 and the discussion here? What is your actual point? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/56 "2015-12-23T10:42:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The distinction is that Iran/Contra, mass surveillance and trumping up evidence to support an Iraq invasion are all based on plausible mechanics, i.e. none of them require purely fictional technologies or thousands upon thousands of conspirators all managing to keep their mouths shut (and obviously someone couldn’t do so, since we heard about them). > > Talk to a 9/11 truther for five minutes and you’re likely to hear about untraceable thermite, holographic planes, invisible detonators, and the involvement of virtually the entire staff of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, and hundreds of members of the military and executive branch. No matter what you might think the U.S. Government is capable of, what would be required for them to be involved in the attack quickly becomes so massive and convoluted that 19 Muslims hijacking and crashing planes ends up being the only plausible story and insisting otherwise is being determinedly foolish. Okay, so proven conspiracies like Iran/Contra, mass surveillance outside the Constitution and WMD are excluded because of plausible mechanics. Plus those conspiracies factually happened, created by elites within the US government. Those are ones we know about. But then this poster includes me in this ‘truther’ grouping when the exact thing I thought I was pointing out was what you term ‘plausible mechanics’: > [@](#): > > I don’t think “the US” did anything. I do know the US invaded - because of a small cohort of raving lunatics - a whole country on a false pretext and most of the USA bought into that. I do know Oliver North and Iran/Contra happened. I do know the whole nation was/is illegally under surveillance and no one spoke out. I do know elements in Saudi Arabia and elements of power in the US have a deep and longstanding relationship based on mutual interests. I do know Saudi Arabia got zero backdraft for 9/11. > > And that’s a little of what we do know, sometimes due to someone occasionally speaking out on a random topic. It will be the top of the iceberg. > > Could there have been some degree of facilitation by an elite? I’m just discount that posters view as _a bit cranky_. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/57 "2015-12-23T10:52:46Z")
> [@Deu5Vult](#): > > So what does any of that have to do with 911 and the discussion here? What is your actual point? The word ‘conspiracy’ seems to have been used in relation to me as if a label you use to dismiss someone, like ‘witch’ or ‘anti-Semite’. We don’t really have that here so it’s interesting to understand the dynamics, especially given the recent history of proven, and very deadly, conspiracies. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/58 "2015-12-23T10:57:48Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Could there have been some degree of facilitation by an elite? That last line about the elites appears to be you asking if 9/11 was a conspiracy they concocted. And, unlike the other examples, there isn’t a plausible mechanism by which this is possible. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/59 "2015-12-23T13:32:54Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …Would you care to explain how Trump and Fox News haters belong in the same list as the truthers and birthers? Like, honestly, we had a very long thread about the latter, where the general consensus was, “Yes, Fox news _really is_ that bad,” because it _kept doing bad things_; and Trump really is that bad, so I’m not sure how this comes from “only hearing what they want”. What, is it _wrong_ to claim that Trump is essentially a racist populist who appeals to and furthers the goals of white nationalists and radical islamophobes? I was making up a list and try to contain within it both sides. Like I said, is futile to talk to ANY of those groups, and their supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/60 "2015-12-23T13:44:34Z")
> [@davida03801](#): > > I was making up a list and try to contain within it both sides. > > Like I said, is futile to talk to ANY of those groups, and their supporters. You can add the group ‘conspiracy deniers’ 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=4)