# Is it futile to discuss 9/11 with truthers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016 "2015-12-21T18:14:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/81 "2015-12-23T19:09:36Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > In a war that can never end created at a time the Cold War had ended - have you seen the cost of Iraq and the on going bills for the war on terrah , the cost of Homeland security, etc. All that glorious government money. > > The smartest spot of all was Google buying up chucks of the robotics industry but, for now look at drones These are glorious days for defence and security contractors: quite literally a war that can never end as long as you keep fueling the fire of rage, and keep your own people scared. Nice story. Got evidence for a conspiracy involving 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/82 "2015-12-23T19:14:36Z")
I’ve never claimed to have. And ‘evidence’ has played no part whatsoever in this discussion. Have you followed this thread? Will you being contributing? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/83 "2015-12-23T19:16:14Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The distinction is that Iran/Contra, mass surveillance and trumping up evidence to support an Iraq invasion are all based on plausible mechanics, i.e. none of them require purely fictional technologies or thousands upon thousands of conspirators all managing to keep their mouths shut (and obviously someone couldn’t do so, since we heard about them) An even more important distinction is that Iran Contra, Watergate, etc were all \*proven \*, whereas 9/11 CT’s have not been. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/84 "2015-12-23T19:22:18Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I’ve never claimed to have. And ‘evidence’ has played no part whatsoever in this discussion. Quoted for truth, and can probably be applied to most other contributions by "JAQ"ers. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Have you followed this thread? Yes-you have shown us exactly why it is futile to discuss 9/11 with truthers. Thank you. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Will you being contributing? Yes, I will continue to contribute as I see fit. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/85 "2015-12-23T19:23:51Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > An even more important distinction is that Iran Contra, Watergate, etc were all \*proven \*, whereas 9/11 CT’s have not been. I’d encourage you to seek out the definition of ‘conspiracy’, you may find it involves secrecy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/86 "2015-12-23T19:26:53Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I’d encourage you to seek out the definition of ‘conspiracy’, you may find it involves secrecy. It involves other things, too. Why don’t _you_ go seek out the definition yourself, since it has already been told to you in this thread and you haven’t listened. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/87 "2015-12-23T19:28:10Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > I’d encourage you to seek out the definition of ‘conspiracy’, you may find it involves secrecy. We’ll get to the bottom of this; Let’s waterboard that Cheney bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/88 "2015-12-23T19:28:41Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > .Look, elements within an elite can conspire successfully to invade an entire country, another elite can turn a blind eye to a plan to knock down a couple of towers. > > We will absolutely never know but, given the history - especially between US and Saudi elites - why not. Look, we know exactly why and how Iran/Contra happened. It has been thoroughly studied, and there’s really not much more to learn about it. We know the whys and hows of the CIA torture program, the war in Vietnam, slavery in the United States, and lots of other bad things in our history. Listing off a list of bad things that we know a lot about is not convincing evidence that we don’t know the real truth about 9/11, because it’s been studied to death and we know the whys and hows of what happened in DC and New York. And let’s keep in mind that Iran/Contra was uncovered in less that two years. The NSA warrantless wiretapping story (at least the biggest part of it) was published in 2005. Shoot, anyone who was paying attention knew that Bush was attacking the wrong country on the day the war started in 2003. But for some reason, you think 14 years later we’re still in a fog about what happened on 9/11? Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/89 "2015-12-23T19:40:59Z")
At least the LIHOPers don’t offer a theory that violates the laws of physics. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/90 "2015-12-23T20:43:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look, we know exactly why and how Iran/Contra happened. It has been thoroughly studied, and there’s really not much more to learn about it. [Additional research material.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpZbbOgjhPc) ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/91 "2015-12-23T20:56:42Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > I just found out that a couple of my band mates believe the US destroyed the World Trade Center. > > Has anyone ever “turned” a truther or is that just a hopeless cause? Is the best policy is to just not talk about it, or is there a simple argument that works? Ignore the doubters, and be heartened and renewed by the example of Ahab in his attempts to fell the white whale. To the last I grapple with thee… That is the type of attitude you need to have, to systematically reprogram their entire brain from the ground up. This is a daunting task, like trying to sweep up all the grains of sand from the desert, but it CAN be done. ---
**Author:** ![Deu5Vult](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ec9cab/32.png) [@Deu5Vult](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deu5Vult)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/92 "2015-12-23T22:48:55Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > would you believe it’s probably not a neatly defined gang with secret handshakes and sew on badges. It doesn’t matter what I believe. Where does your privileged insight come from? > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Did you know you are talking abut Afghanistan for no obvious reason. Yes, why yes I do. The obvious reason being the invasion of Afghanistan was the USA’s riposte to 911. Presumably this was the outcome, or the new Pearl Harbour, your ‘elite’ were hoping for? Why would this not be obvious in your voluntarily offered context of “pretext to war”? If the invasion of Afghanistan was not on the agenda of these ‘elites’, please tell me why rational human beings would sit back and watch New York burn for no good reason knowing that they personally could have prevented the tragedy. > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > That’s because they are … precedents. OK, fair enough. Well, that’s another yes to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/93 "2015-12-24T04:27:17Z")
Here’s the part I could never get past. And personally, I never thought for a moment it was an “inside job.” But just for the sake of argument, let’s imagine the Bush/Cheney Administration managed to pull it off. They set all those charges, got those planes to crash into the buildings right on time with all those poor, innocent people, no one noticed, and no one talked. The plan works perfectly. You’ve pulled off the hoax of the century and you’ve got your cover to invade Iraq. So… why name bin Laden as the “villain?” If you want to invade Iraq, doesn’t it make more sense to name Saddam, instead of having to hoodwink the entire country (again) just after you got done successfully taking down the Towers? FFS. ---
**Author:** ![Ducie\_1950](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Ducie\_1950](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ducie_1950)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/94 "2015-12-24T04:59:06Z")
A “Truthers” mentality is simple: “Don’t confuse me with reason and logic…My mind’s made up”. How can you possibly (successfully) argue with those parameters? Someone said it stops being an amusement at some point. It’s well known that my name and “diplomacy” rarely collide in the same sentence. Consequently, I have no patience with idiots, and the first syllables uttered along the “crazy lines”, would have been the end of the conversation. Being the “diplomat” I am, I would have let loose on them. Stupidity! Ignorance! Anti-American! Not paying homage to those that died! Etc., etc. It’s just my nature to do so! ---
**Author:** ![phreak9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@phreak9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phreak9)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/95 "2015-12-24T07:32:04Z")
I think the truthers have an bit of an argument when it comes to how the buildings collapsed and how and why building 7 (?) was destroyed. Where the whole thing loses its bearings to me is that Americans dont need 3,000 dead people to go into Iraq or any other number of countries. A lie is all it takes. You dont have to twist our arms with 3,000 dead people and a giant extensive multi fascited multi million dollar conspiracy. We like war. Tell us there are WMD’s in Syria, Iraq, Iran and anywhere else and have Rumsfeld point to a diagram and say ‘we know where the WMD’s are, they are in tikrit and the surrounding areas’. Bing Bang BOOM DONE! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/96 "2015-12-24T08:11:04Z")
Popular Mechanics did a special issue - later expanded into a book - debunking every thermite-cum-demolition-cum-engineers-cum story that Truthers used. It is referenced and does a nice job of taking complex things and working them into understandable prose. It neatly shows the science and facts that show conspiracy theorists to be manipulated or dishonest. Buy this book for your Truther friends. Most will come up with bullshit responses. They are lost causes. But for someone not a lost cause, it is the best resource to turn them away from the dark side. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/97 "2015-12-24T09:59:56Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Popular Mechanics did a special issue - later expanded into a book - debunking every thermite-cum-demolition-cum-engineers-cum story that Truthers used. It is referenced and does a nice job of taking complex things and working them into understandable prose. It neatly shows the science and facts that show conspiracy theorists to be manipulated or dishonest. > > Buy this book for your Truther friends. > > Most will come up with bullshit responses. They are lost causes. But for someone not a lost cause, it is the best resource to turn them away from the dark side. Of course the die-hard truther will come up with a BS response. The standard response is “That’s not real science; it’s a magazine”. As you say they’re lost causes. In addition, my pet theory (sorry about that) on why someone is a truther/birther/Oswald didn’t do it/Oswald wasn’t a lone shooter/etc. CTer is that it’s rooted in a deeply-held prejudice and you’re not going to win over that prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/98 "2015-12-24T10:21:19Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …Would you care to explain how Trump and Fox News haters belong in the same list as the truthers and birthers? Like, honestly, we had a very long thread about the latter, where the general consensus was, “Yes, Fox news _really is_ that bad,” because it _kept doing bad things_; and Trump really is that bad, so I’m not sure how this comes from “only hearing what they want”. What, is it _wrong_ to claim that Trump is essentially a racist populist who appeals to and furthers the goals of white nationalists and radical islamophobes? > [@davida03801](#): > > I was making up a list and **try** to contain within it both sides. > > Like I said, is futile to talk to ANY of those groups, and their supporters. Because it’s SO important that the phenomenon be seen to exist as much (or more) on the left side of the aisle as on the right… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Accident](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Mr.Accident](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Accident)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/99 "2015-12-24T11:34:00Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why were you a “truther” back then? Sorry it took so long to respond back; between work and holidays I have had little time for computers. I was relatively young and naive back when 9/11 happened. I still thought America was the greatest country in the world; we had the largest military, all these amazing agencies dedicated to protecting us (FBI, CIA, etc.). To me it seemed impossible that 12 men from countries I had rarely even heard of could pull off such an attack on any American town, much less New York, and definitely not the Twin Towers. On top of that I majorly hated Bush by that point, so it was easy to place the blame on him. I was already spending a good portion of my time on conspiracy boards by then, so I was getting exposed to other people with the same ideas. There were few skeptics on such sites, and they would always get shouted down. This place helped open my eyes to a lot of things, and helped teach me some important critical thinking skills. ---
**Author:** ![geological](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/67e7ee/32.png) [@geological](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geological)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016/100 "2015-12-24T14:45:22Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/_EgPHsLEGuE/maxresdefault.jpg "Ted Gunderson FBI Whistleblower Killed By The Illuminati") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EgPHsLEGuE) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-futile-to-discuss-9-11-with-truthers/741016.md?page=6)