# Is it good or bad to have a monarchy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212 "2019-06-08T14:22:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/21 "2019-06-08T23:49:05Z")
> [@Dropo](#): > > A nation gets what it deserves in a free-and-fair election, but those ruled by royalty seem at greater risk of getting a raw deal in which they have no say. Personally I wouldn’t swap Trump for any member of our royal family. Not even Prince Andrew. And last time we had a King who was even a fraction as bad as Trump (1938), he was removed with far less difficulty than you’re having. It’s not democratic, but so what? The purpose of democracy is to secure good governance, it’s not an end in itself, and fetishising it even when it fails is ridiculous. That said, if we ever get a monarch lik Edward VIII again, and they don’t willingly leave, I would be supporting the abolition of the monarchy. Hopefully to be replaced by another apolitical Head of State of some sort. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2019, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/22 "2019-06-08T23:53:25Z")
“Here lies our sovereign Lord, the King, Whose word no man relies on; He never says a foolish thing, Nor ever does a wise one.” John Wilmot, Earl of Richmond to Charles II c1670. Charles II in reply; “The words are mine, the actions are those of my ministers” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/23 "2019-06-09T00:29:28Z")
> [@naita](#): > > What are you switching from at that time though? Despotism > [@glee](#): > > But our UK Monarchy (children included) **doesn’t run anything**. > > Which country are you thinking of? > Here in the UK, the Monarchy has no say in the military budget. > Do you think we’ve got a secret police? 😕 > Could you let me know what they are called? And how does the Queen finance them? > > Funny how the Queen is so popular here. > Opinion polls have regularly shown that Queen Elizabeth II has an excellent approval rating; coinciding with her Diamond Jubilee, the Queen had an approval rate in the United Kingdom of 90% in 2012… > > Meanwhile in the US (a non-Monarchy), it’s obvious that Trump doesn’t care about anyone but his minority base. Who said I was talking about england? I was talking about government. Bruce Buena de Mesquita writes about game theory as it relates to politics, and about how to achieve ones goals (to obtain and stay in power, which are the root goals of politicians) one must find those who have the ability to help you obtain and keep power, and keep them happy under your rule. > **[The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics: Bueno...](https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Handbook-Behavior-Almost-Politics/dp/1610391845)** > > The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics \[Bueno de Mesquita, Bruce, Smith, Alastair\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The Dictator's Handbook: Why Bad Behavior is Almost Always Good Politics In a democracy this means keeping 51% of the voters happy. In a dictatorship this means keeping the secret police and military leaders happy. Basically anyone who can organize a coup in a monarchy either has to be bribed or terrorized. Or both (usually both). But the public can just be terrorized with the secret police. So in a monarchy, what incentive does the king/queen have to look out for the well being of the citizens? Maybe they’ll be a good person who genuinely cares about their nation and people. But keep in mind these people have been told since birth that they are godlike, and that right and wrong are beneath them. This mentality of hoping the dictator cares about the people didn’t work in North Korea where we’d had 3 generations of evil sociopaths in charge now. Politicians will do what it takes to gain and keep power. In a democracy this includes winning enough votes and you win enough votes by doing things like getting your suppoters out to vote, preventing your opponents from voting, motivating your supporters with carrots (giveaways, good policies) and sticks (fear of what the other side will do). My point about Kenya still stands. Imagine tomorrow that the UK and Kenya become one nation, and all Kenyans obtain full voting status. Now every Kenyan can vote in UK elections. What do you think happens to politics there? Politicians in the UK go from not giving a shit about the problems in Kenya to making them a top priority. Because now they know to get what they want (power) they have to give the people who determine whether they have power or not (voters) what they want. In a monarchy you make sure the generals, secret police and a few top bureaucrats are bribed (but also afraid of each other) and you terrorize everyone else to stay in power. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/24 "2019-06-09T00:51:37Z")
\*\*Wesley Clark \*\* seems to me like is in effect using the word “monarchy” in the sense of its ultimate etimology, “rule by one”. Everyone else seems to be using it in the sense of how it is usually applied in the nations most of us live in. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/25 "2019-06-09T01:24:20Z")
Indeed ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/26 "2019-06-09T01:30:42Z")
You guys are discussing monarchy as a cosmetic throwback to olden times. Which yes is different than an actual monarchy. Modern monarchies that are just for show in modern democracies are one thing, but real monarchies are ruled with no incentive to show concern for the public’s well being. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/27 "2019-06-09T02:52:28Z")
Except the question posed by the OP specifically mentions the UK monarchy, **Wesley**. If you don’t want to address his question, so be it, but by stating that the UK isn’t a real monarchy, you’re changing the point of the discussion in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/28 "2019-06-09T04:45:46Z")
I think a monarchy goes well with parliamentary-style governments. I think Presidential-style governments do not mix well with a Prime Minister style system because of the two kinds, the mixed one where the elected President and the Prime Minister both have a lot of power results in a lot of power struggles, and the one where the President does not have much power, the President is not as respected on the world stage as s/he would be if s/he were monarch. Conversely, I’m not sure if a monarchy would detract from a strong elected Presidency, as there would not be a power struggle. It might be a benefit if their role were formalized, becoming like a permanent member of the Cabinet and requiring as a condition of the job for them and their heirs to be up to date on governmental workings. It might provide stability and perspective to new presidents and cabinets. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/29 "2019-06-09T05:27:47Z")
> [@Buffy / Minorities on TV / Etc. (possible spoilers for bbc2 people)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-minorities-on-tv-etc-possible-spoilers-for-bbc2-people/112833/23): > > Theres just no incentive for the leaders in a monarchy to care about the well being of their citizens, anymore than there is incentive for an American politican to care about the well being of people in Kenya. If the US & Kenya became one nation, and the 50 million Kenyans suddenly became voting citizens of the US, then US politicians would start caring deeply and quickly about what the people of Kenya want because now they’d have something to gain or lose by keeping the Kenyans happy. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Modern monarchies that are just for show in modern democracies are one thing, but real monarchies are ruled with no incentive to show concern for the public’s well being. Louis XVI will be very glad to hear that. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/30 "2019-06-09T06:51:34Z")
I used to be a card-carrying republican. I’m a proud monarchist now. I don’t think anything would really be improved by becoming a republic. Certainly many monarchies are quite generous social monarchies like Scandinavian kingdoms and the Netherlands. Not that monarchy = fairer society of course, but that there is no correlation that republic = fairer society either. In fact I’d sometimes be inclined to say monarchy can help reconcile conservatives to incremental change, which republics can degenerate to party political identity. As for meritocracy, election of the president isn’t meritocratic either, it’s merely a popularity contest, and I think we can all agree elections aren’t producing the best politicians we could have right now. On the contrary a monarchy is trained from a very young age making them extremely well informed, and I wonder if a touch of familial concern and the weight of history is an incentive to try to do it right. Certainly at least the UK has been fortunate with its royals for the past century at least. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/31 "2019-06-09T08:11:34Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In real life the main problems with a monarchy is that they are not appointed by a meritocracy. Granted that doesn’t happen in democracy either (Bill Clinton’s wife ran against the son of a millionaire real estate developer in 2016. In 2012 the son of a successful CEO and governor ran against Obama who actually was self made. Bush Jr, McCain and Gore jr were scions of wealth and influence, etc). You seem to be under the misconception that being a successful businessperson or executive makes you qualified to be a good politician. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/32 "2019-06-09T11:14:08Z")
I’m OK with people pretending to be in charge as long as they don’t get tax money, that goes for any country. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/33 "2019-06-09T11:44:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You seem to be under the misconception that being a successful businessperson or executive makes you qualified to be a good politician. And that “meritocracy” is an unalloyed good. [The term was coined as a warning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy) against the potential for arrogance, entitlement and self-replicating exclusion as a new ruling class, among those who think they reach the top entirely on their own merits, when other factors play into it just as much. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/34 "2019-06-09T12:10:09Z")
My take on it, is that a very large proportion of people seem to really want a monarch: Even in the supposedly-democratic US, out of 45 Presidents, we’ve had two sons of previous Presidents and one grandson, plus a great many lesser offices filled by relatives and “noble families”. And if you’re going to be having people pushing for a monarchy anyway, better to do it in a controlled way that doesn’t lead to any power, than having it intrude on the established political systems. And then they can go ahead and take the burden of ribbon-cuttings, sex scandals, and all of the other things people expect from monarchies off of the people with real power, too. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/35 "2019-06-09T12:22:11Z")
Here’s an interesting fact: monarchical countries consistently rank high in a number of indices that are used to provide comparisons between standards of living in different countries. [List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita: five out of the top ten.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita) [Global Competitiveness Report: five out of the top ten.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Competitiveness_Report) [Corruption Perceptions Index: seven out of the top ten.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index) (i.e. least corrupt perception, in case there was any ambiguity there 😉 ) [Human Development Index: four of the top ten.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index#2017_Human_Development_Index_(2018_report)) [Democracy Index: six of the top ten.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index#Democracy_Index_by_country_2018) Considering that there are [193 sovereign states (going by membership in the UN)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations), and only [approximately 45 monarchies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_current_monarchies) (roughly 23%), that suggests that monarchical countries are over-performing to be in the top ten of all these indices. ---
**Author:** ![l0k1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bb73d2/32.png) [@l0k1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/l0k1)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/36 "2019-06-09T13:29:06Z")
I question the 45 monarchies number. Why isn’t North Korea considered a monarchy? It has a hereditary dictatorship. I know his title isn’t king or emperor, but it can’t just be due to what he calls himself. They also call themselves democratic and a republic, but we don’t choose to believe them. ---
**Author:** ![Teuton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/teuton/32/3864_2.png) [@Teuton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teuton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/37 "2019-06-09T13:40:33Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > “Here lies our sovereign Lord, the King, > Whose word no man relies on; > He never says a foolish thing, > Nor ever does a wise one.” > John Wilmot, Earl of Richmond to Charles II c1670. > > Charles II in reply; > “The words are mine, the actions are those of my ministers” I read this as a limerick and got really confused by the last line ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/38 "2019-06-09T13:50:41Z")
Interesting discussion. Here’s a hypothetical, though maybe an unlikely one: should the UK decide to abolish the monarchy (or future generations of US voters decide to change to a parliamentary system), how would the head of state be determined? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/39 "2019-06-09T13:51:56Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Here’s an interesting fact: monarchical countries consistently rank high in a number of indices that are used to provide comparisons between standards of living in different countries. I’d like to reiterate my point about correlation and cause and effect. What do you think happens to low performing monarchies? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2019, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212/40 "2019-06-09T14:26:44Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Except the question posed by the OP specifically mentions the UK monarchy, **Wesley**. If you don’t want to address his question, so be it, but by stating that the UK isn’t a real monarchy, you’re changing the point of the discussion in this thread. My mistake, I wasn’t following the nature of the discussion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-good-or-bad-to-have-a-monarchy/835212.md?page=3)