# Is it illegal to conquer the World?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [September 27, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174 "2001-09-27T20:04:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/1 "2001-09-27T20:04:13Z")
I figure I’d better check before I get started.
You may remember an old Fantastic Four comic. Dr. Doom’s evil plans get foiled and the Fantastic Four finally catch him.
He gets put on trial, but the case gets immediately dismissed. As it turns out there is no law that says you can’t try to conquer the world.
Is this true? (the law part)
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### Author:  [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/2 "2001-09-27T20:12:30Z")
Well, unless it means you’re cheating at RISK, I guess it’s ok.
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### Author:  [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/3 "2001-09-27T20:14:23Z")
I’d assume that it would be impossible to conquer the world without committing various acts of treason against various countries. I doubt that anyone bothered to specifically legislate against it, though.
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### Author:  [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/4 "2001-09-27T20:18:22Z")
[Right of conquest](http://www.snowcrest.net/siskfarm/R5Conq.html) is still pretty much legal in international law, as far as I know.
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### Author:  [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/5 "2001-09-27T20:19:15Z")
Under the Hague I Conventions it is illegal to wage an aggressive war. The Kellog-Briand Pact also outlawed the use of war as a means of national policy.
Between the two, you’d probably find yourself at the end of a rope. Assuming, of course, that you failed and they convened an international tribunal to try you.
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/6 "2001-09-27T20:24:12Z")
waterj:
If I had wanted guesses I would have posted this in IMHO. I want facts, man. Facts.
Say I renounce my citizenship, move onto a deserted Island, and declare myself a sovereign nation. From there I manufacture an army of unstoppable robots. I send them to the US first and they destroy all military weapons (without killing anybody. I’m not a maniac, you know,) and then seize control of all government infrastructure. Once this accomplished I then install myself as Supreme Ruler, abolish the Constitution and Bill of Rights by decree, and declare America Scillyland.
Have I broken any laws?
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### Author:  [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/7 "2001-09-27T20:28:56Z")
(I would of course declare war before I invaded)
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### Author:  [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/8 "2001-09-27T20:32:25Z")
You might have a case. The pretext of your “war” could be the fact that the United States refuses to recognize your sovereignty. If, in the course of continuing politics in that most ancient of ways, you happen to defeat and take over America you then have the right to abrogate whatever American laws you disagree with and rule the nation as you see fit.
However, those laws which you did not specifically abrogate seem to remain in effect, so your changes had better be rather sweeping.
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### Author:  [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/9 "2001-09-27T20:44:20Z")
\*Say I renounce my citizenship, move onto a deserted Island, and declare myself a sovereign nation. From there I manufacture an army of unstoppable robots. I send them to the US first and they destroy all military weapons (without killing anybody. I’m not a maniac, you know,) and then seize control of all government infrastructure. Once this accomplished I then install myself as Supreme Ruler, abolish the Constitution and Bill of Rights by decree, and declare America Scillyland.
Have I broken any laws?\*
Broken any laws? Man, you **are** the law! Of course, then you have to pay us all reparations and give us all sorts of financial aid, but them’s the breaks. (Read _The Mouse That Roared_ for details.)
RR
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### Author:  [@lucwarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucwarm)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/10 "2001-09-27T21:34:58Z")
I had a professor who used to say “The trouble with international law is, there ain’t no such thing.”
So if your attempt succeeds, you’re home free.
If your attempt to take over the world fails, you could be charged with and convicted of any number of crimes, depending on the mechanics of your plan.
For starters, attempted tresspassing.
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### Author:  [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/11 "2001-09-27T22:50:32Z")
“Why, the wrong is but a wrong i’ the world; and having the world for your labour, ’tis a wrong in your own world, and you might quickly make it right.”
-Othello IV.iii.
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/12 "2001-09-27T23:20:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **(Scylla)** Say I renounce my citizenship, move onto a deserted Island, and declare myself a sovereign nation. From there I manufacture an army of unstoppable robots. I send them to the US first and they destroy all military weapons (without killing anybody. I’m not a maniac, you know,) and then seize control of all government infrastructure. Once this accomplished I then install myself as Supreme Ruler, abolish the Constitution and Bill of Rights by decree, and declare America Scillyland.
>
> Have I broken any laws?
And my wife says it must be strange inside **my** head…
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### Author:  [@Chas.E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chas.E)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/13 "2001-09-27T23:21:23Z")
Answer: Only if you lose.
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### Author:  [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)
#### Post date: [September 27, 2001, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/14 "2001-09-27T23:30:30Z")
As has been noted, the victors write not only the history books, but the new laws as well. If you try and fail in the U.S., you’re looking at twenty years.
From the [United States Code](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/unframed/18/2385.html)
> [@](#):
>
> **Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government**
>
> Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
> Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
> Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof -
> Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2001, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/15 "2001-09-28T00:48:35Z")
Who cares if you’re breaking the law?
Laws are tools - nothing more. If they don’t work, something else will. They certainly have no place in international politics.
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2001, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/16 "2001-09-28T01:10:21Z")
Umm… wouldn’t those provisions more or less make the entire United States Communist Party illegal? Or does the party backpedal on it’s dogma of a worker’s revolution, and claim it simply seeks to work within the provisions of the Constitution?
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### Author:  [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2001, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/17 "2001-09-28T01:46:09Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **Umm… wouldn’t those provisions more or less make the entire United States Communist Party illegal? …**
How do you know whether that bit of code wasn’t written specifically against the Communists?
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### Author:  [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2001, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/18 "2001-09-28T02:19:47Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Say I renounce my citizenship, move onto a deserted Island, and declare myself a sovereign nation. From there I manufacture an army of unstoppable robots. I send them to the US first and they destroy all military weapons (without killing anybody. I’m not a maniac, you know,) and then seize control of all government infrastructure. Once this accomplished I then install myself as Supreme Ruler, abolish the Constitution and Bill of Rights by decree, and declare America Scillyland.
>
> Have I broken any laws?
Let’s assume that you chose Baker Island as your deserted island. It’s deserted, about one square mile, kind of near Kiribati and Howland Island (also uninhabited), and owned by the US. Sure all the US does is have a ship stop by every year (I think it’s the Department of the Interior that takes care of this), and sure the US’s legal claim to it is not exactly ironclad (the US occupied it for purposes of guano harvesting in the 19th century, then left, then the British came and left, then the US decided that under the laws of the time, it had actually become US soil during the first occupation), but hiding out there does not remove you from US jurisdiction.
I don’t believe that there is anywhere in the world that not part of some country.
Also, I believe that generally countries can extend their jurisdiction to include people that break that country’s laws from outside its jurisdiction. The simplest example is standing in Canada and shooting a gun at a US citizen across the border. An historical example is the case against Noriega for trafficking drugs into the US. Another example may come up if we get Osama bin Laden back here for trial. Thus, no matter where you are, the US could probably still try and convict you for trying to overthrow the US government.
Or perhaps they’d just have the trial in a country that doesn’t have a constituional prohibition of _ex post facto_ laws.
Also, I’d recommend the book _How to Start Your Own Country_, published by Loompanics Inc., which includes an endorsement from Cecil himself on the back (it was cited in a column on the subject of starting one’s own country).
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### Author:  [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2001, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/19 "2001-09-28T03:43:37Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Say I renounce my citizenship, move onto a deserted Island, and declare myself a sovereign nation. From there I manufacture an army of unstoppable robots. I send them to the US first and they destroy all military weapons (without killing anybody. I’m not a maniac, you know,) and then seize control of all government infrastructure. Once this accomplished I then install myself as Supreme Ruler, abolish the Constitution and Bill of Rights by decree, and declare America Scillyland.
>
> Have I broken any laws?
> (I would of course declare war before I invaded)
Miss Manners would applaud your adherence to a charming social convention that is now, sadly, passing out of use in our busy modern world…
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### Author:  [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)
#### Post date: [September 28, 2001, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-illegal-to-conquer-the-world/84174/20 "2001-09-28T04:13:42Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government
>
> Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
> Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
> Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof -
> Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
At this time I would like to declare for the record that I am forming a society, group or assembly of persons to advocate for the desirability of the violent overthrow of my local school board.
Bring on the feds.
Can anyone say “First Amendment”?
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