# Is it, in fact, the Democratic Party which is imploding? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 5, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725 "2015-11-05T16:31:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/61 "2015-11-06T14:26:05Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I can’t think of a single anti-Nazi resistance fighter in the leadership of either the DPP or in Fremskridtspartiet. Since the need for anti-Nazi resistance disappeared 70 years ago, that’s hardly surprising, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/62 "2015-11-06T14:33:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > These are very close to my guesses (though I think Carson has as bad a chance as Trump). They are both fringe candidates, but Carson is a likeable fringe candidate and Trump is an obnoxious fringe candidate. Likeability counts a lot with voters (plus it’s easier to unfringe yourself than to change your personality). ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/63 "2015-11-06T14:44:03Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > Since the need for anti-Nazi resistance disappeared 70 years ago, that’s hardly surprising, surely? No it’s not very surprising at all. But the claim was that “the DPP is actually descended from the Danish anti-Nazi resistance in World War 2.” Which isn’t quite right, seeing how neither its current leadership, its former leadership, its “founding fathers” nor its most immediate predecessor (Fremskridtspartiet) can claim any but the most tenuous connection to the anti-Nazi resistance during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/64 "2015-11-06T16:21:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **adaher** : > > Losing their insurance, any taxes or fees that apply to them, the individual mandate, and the price of their insurance going up, if applicable, due to mandates to cover things they don’t need. Oh, and unions hate the cadillac tax. It’s not in effect yet, but since it will go into effect during the next President’s term, Clinton’s had to pander on the issue. So in other words, the things people don’t like about the ACA are either things that aren’t happening at all, things that are happening but don’t have anything to do with the ACA, or the single most popular part of the ACA. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/65 "2015-11-06T16:34:16Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > They are both fringe candidates, but Carson is a likeable fringe candidate and Trump is an obnoxious fringe candidate. Likeability counts a lot with voters (plus it’s easier to unfringe yourself than to change your personality). Not likely with a **Young** Earth Creationist. [http://americablog.com/2015/09/ca-governor-jerry-brown-owns-ben-carson-on-climate-change.html](http://americablog.com/2015/09/ca-governor-jerry-brown-owns-ben-carson-on-climate-change.html) > [@](#): > > Ben Carson is a young-earth creationist, so he is positively unbothered by the idea of humans causing climate change. After all, if God isn’t doing it, it isn’t happening. And if it happened more than 6,000 years ago, it doesn’t exist. And one of the main lines of evidence about what CO2 does to the atmosphere of the earth comes from paleo climate, a science that people like Carson does dismiss before hand because it deals with thousands or millions of years into the past conditions of the earth. > [@](#): > > Brown didn’t even mention our own government’s most recent yearly report on climate change, which puts yet another exclamation point on the idea that we’re already screwed, and the only way to keep from getting more screwed is to take action now to curb our greenhouse gas emissions in a big way. > > To be clear, the chances of Carson reading the reports in the flash drive Brown sent him, or changing his rhetoric on the campaign trail, are precisely zero. Nevertheless, it goes to show how much harder it is to willfully mislead and misdirect on climate science these days. There really is too much evidence to ignore. Like Trump I see Carson as a target rich environment for many lines of criticism against him that will come out full blast if Trump or Carson does become the Republican candidate. > **[Ben Carson: Evolution Is Satanic and the Big Bang Is a Fairy Tale](https://slate.com/technology/2015/09/ben-carson-anti-science.html)** > > At one point in time, GOP presidential candidate Ben Carson may have been best known as an excellent, even groundbreaking, neurosurgeon. In recent... > [@](#): > > This actually goes way back. In 2006 he clearly stated his anti-evolutionary views and has repeated these claims many times since. In 2012 there was controversy over this when he was asked to give the commencement address at Emory University. In 2004 he said that people who accept evolution “dismiss ethics,” a comment he later backed down on a very tiny little bit (later saying they “might have more difficulty deriving where their ethics come from”). > > I’d heard about all this before, but an article at BuzzFeed has something I hadn’t heard: In 2012, in a speech at an event called “Celebration of Creation,” he said that Darwin came up with evolutionary theory because the devil made him do it. > > I mean that literally. He said, “I personally believe that this theory that Darwin came up with was something that was encouraged by the adversary.” The Adversary is a nickname for the devil; it’s the actual translation of the word “Satan.” So there’s that. > > He also dismissed the Big Bang, calling it a “fairy tale.” The irony of this is palpable. When recently called on this claim, he dug in, saying (about people who think the Big Bang is true), “Here’s the key, I then say to them look, ‘I’m not gonna criticize you, you have a lot more faith then I have.’ I couldn’t, I don’t have enough faith to believe that.” > > Wow. Where to start? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/66 "2015-11-06T17:00:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So in other words, the things people don’t like about the ACA are either things that aren’t happening at all, things that are happening but don’t have anything to do with the ACA, or the single most popular part of the ACA. I know for a fact that my personal employer sponsored health plan has been modified causing me to pay more in direct response to the ACA. Here is a quote from our latest open enrollment message: > [@](#): > > • Medical Plan Enhancements. To keep managing costs and limiting our tax liability under the Affordable Care Act’s “Cadillac Tax,” we need to keep fine tuning our medical plans and cost structures. Those “enhancements” are all increases in out of pocket costs. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/67 "2015-11-06T17:12:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I know for a fact that my personal employer sponsored health plan has been modified causing me to pay more in direct response to the ACA. Here is a quote from our latest open enrollment message: > > Those “enhancements” are all increases in out of pocket costs. This IMHO points to the next war that it should had taken place already: controlling prices and I do think the solution should include a mix of regulation and competition. Good luck as on this The Republicans showed who they represent as with [Medicare part D big pharma got the perk of not being subject to price regulations or to discourage the government from negotiating better prices.](http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2012/sep/04/tammy-baldwin/uncle-sam-barred-bargaining-medicare-drug-prices-s/) And so it goes with many other medical industry and providers, and I know that while many Democrats are also in the pockets of the industry they can be counted on making more baby steps though. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/68 "2015-11-06T17:15:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I know for a fact that my personal employer sponsored health plan has been modified causing me to pay more in direct response to the ACA. Here is a quote from our latest open enrollment message: > > Those “enhancements” are all increases in out of pocket costs. How much of the increases have to do with “managing costs” versus “limiting our tax liability”? In fact, how much of that enrollment message actually reflects the world outside the company versus the world inside (such as the company’s desire to have a higher profit by reducing spending on health benefits by making you pay more)? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/69 "2015-11-06T17:26:15Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > How much of the increases have to do with “managing costs” versus “limiting our tax liability”? In fact, how much of that enrollment message actually reflects the world outside the company versus the world inside (such as the company’s desire to have a higher profit by reducing spending on health benefits by making you pay more)? I have no idea though “managing costs” is functionally equivalent to “limiting our tax liability”. Essentially the plan that was previously offered would incur higher tax liability because the benefits were too good. So they reduced them, through a combination of reduced services and increased costs. I am paying more, and getting less. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > This IMHO points to the next war that it should had taken place already: controlling prices and I do think the solution should include a mix of regulation and competition. Oh goodie, price controls. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/70 "2015-11-06T17:33:06Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I have no idea though “managing costs” is functionally equivalent to “limiting our tax liability”. Essentially the plan that was previously offered would incur higher tax liability because the benefits were too good. So they reduced them, through a combination of reduced services and increased costs. > > I am paying more, and getting less. > > Oh goodie, price controls. Yes, but not in a draconian sense as many on the right give it by knee jerking. Once again I’m talking about the really dumb moves to not cost cuts made by Republicans already, the lack of any control or regulation with prices has not given us cheaper drugs, on the contrary, abuses in pricing are becoming common. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/71 "2015-11-06T20:28:49Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Not likely with a **Young** Earth Creationist. > [@](#): > > Like Trump I see Carson as a target rich environment for many lines of criticism against him that will come out full blast if Trump or Carson does become the Republican candidate. I agree things of this sort hurt Carson, but not nearly as much as Trump’s shtick. People don’t care all that much about things like YEC, which don’t affect them that much, as much as they care about not voting for jerks. [FWIW, my wife likes the fact that Trump is in the race. She feels that most politicians are more Trump-like than they care to share so they only show their carefully crafted facades, and a guy like Trump who lets it all hang out is a breath of fresh air. For my part I’d rather get my entertainment in a form which is not damaging the Republican brand.] ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/72 "2015-11-06T20:31:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, all of these people who dislike the ACA: Just which part of the ACA is it that they dislike? Obama’s name on it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/73 "2015-11-06T20:34:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Oh goodie, price controls. You know a better way to put down [rent-seeking behavior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking)? Which is pretty much the whole business model nowadays for the health-insurance and big-pharma sectors. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/74 "2015-11-06T22:25:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You know a better way to put down [rent-seeking behavior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking)? Which is pretty much the whole business model nowadays for the health-insurance and big-pharma sectors. You’ll have to explain what you are characterizing as rent seeking behavior more specifically, and why you think that should be put down if you desire any kind of response. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/75 "2015-11-06T22:35:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You’ll have to explain what you are characterizing as rent seeking behavior more specifically, and why you think that should be put down if you desire any kind of response. [This is](http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/twitter_shreds_drug_profiteer_martin_shkreli_for_increasing_cost_of_common_treatment_of_parasitic_infections_by_5455_percent/), and why should be obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/76 "2015-11-06T22:49:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [This is](http://www.salon.com/2015/09/21/twitter_shreds_drug_profiteer_martin_shkreli_for_increasing_cost_of_common_treatment_of_parasitic_infections_by_5455_percent/), and why should be obvious. It’s not obvious - why do you think it should be? That seems like a case of FDA regulations having an unintended consequences allowing a company to extract monopolistic profits. And the answer is…price controls? Brilliant! Next, let’s invade Iraq! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/77 "2015-11-09T20:32:23Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Also you act like the party being tied to the coasts and the big cities is a sign that it is a minority party. The coasts and big cities make up a sizeable chunk of the US. The NYC metro area has more people than most of the plains states combined. Here are a couple different illuminating ways to view the 2012 vote: by [equal-population-area cartogram of state-level results](http://www.clearlyandsimply.com/.a/6a00e554d9fb99883301b8d10b291d970c-pi), and by [county-level bar graphs, color-coded by proportion of vote](http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/politics/Election2012tippedmore.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/78 "2015-11-16T23:21:37Z")
I am probably voting for Sanders. But I think the GOP have some halfway decent chances to win the White House. The problems with the Democrats, honestly? [ul] [li]The Democratic Party seems to hate the very idea of being ideological. The GOP get more strident, more ideological, more fanatical, and keep winning. The Dems want to assure us they’re not like that. Well, what are they like? Losers?[/li][li]The Democrats are overly focused on the Presidency, and so lose most other races. This goes along with the above. A religion can fill every nomination for a contest with someone to recite its catechism, no matter how stupid the candidate as a person. And the GOP have believers enough. The Democrats are trying to vote in one hero to lead us all (but not really, because he’ll have to suck up to the Ben Nelsons in Congress). If this were an elected dictatorship, the Democrats might be dominant![/li][li]Somewhere along the way, the Dems became conservative. They’re mostly not talking about Medicare for all; they’re talking about preserving the compromise that keeps Medicare for the most expensive patients and employer-provided health insurance for other people (and then nothing for yet other people). Why? Well, maybe because a lot of the Democratic base _are insurance salesmen._ :eek: So they’re a party allergic to real criticism of the _status quo_ and thus anti-reform. The GOP are actually able to look like reformers.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/79 "2015-11-16T23:36:23Z")
[quote=“foolsguinea, post:78, topic:736725”] [li]The Democratic Party seems to hate the very idea of being ideological. The GOP get more strident, more ideological, more fanatical, and keep winning. The Dems want to assure us they’re not like that. Well, what are they like? Losers?[/li][/QUOTE] The Democrats’ thinking is that if the Republicans want to cede the middle, the Democrats can just take it. And all things being equal, it would work. The problem is that while a President is in office, elections tend to be about him, and Democrats have been unwilling to fully back Obama on the campaign trail, so no one really has a reason to vote for them. There’s smart ways to be nonideological and centrist, and there are dumb ways. For my part, I view the Republicans’ increasing ideological extremism to be a serious problem. A level-headed, responsible GOP would clean the Democrats’ clocks easily in 2016. We don’t have that. But I do think the Democrats are getting dumb in other ways that they had cured during their period of relative success: they are getting soft on crime again, soft on national security, soft on illegal immigration. Those issues were murder on Democrats in the 80s, which is why this election could be 1980 all over again, with a sensible, but not particularly well liked Democrat(almost an incumbent if not technically) running against an extremist buffoon who Democrats are sure the electorate will never vote for, but who did a great job of persuading people that they didn’t need to hold their nose. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725/80 "2015-11-16T23:40:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But I do think the Democrats are getting dumb in other ways that they had cured during their period of relative success: they are getting soft on crime again, soft on national security, soft on illegal immigration. Those issues were murder on Democrats in the 80s, which is why this election could be 1980 all over again, with a sensible, but not particularly well liked Democrat(almost an incumbent if not technically) running against an extremist buffoon who Democrats are sure the electorate will never vote for, but who did a great job of persuading people that they didn’t need to hold their nose. Now isn’t 1980. The Southern strategy won’t work anymore. And “soft” on national security makes a much stronger America than the supposed “strength” from the Republicans. And there’s no Reagan in the Republican field. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-in-fact-the-democratic-party-which-is-imploding/736725.md?page=5)