# Is it inevitable that someday guns will be banned in the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197 "2009-05-03T18:55:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/61 "2009-05-05T03:06:37Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > There’s something about the whole thing that’s extremely selfish and self-serving. Oh, I agree completely. But try saying that publicly and you’ll immediately be labelled a Misogynist. Personally, I think that what’s needed is a public education campaign, to educate people about how guns aren’t evil and are a piece of sporting equipment like that used in any other sport. Also, how many characters in TV shows are shown as recreational shooters? Occaisonally you see people (usually from The South) in full hunting get-up, often to take a “City Boy” hunting (hiliarity inevitably ensues). I’d like to see a well-rounded character in a major TV show who is a clay pigeon shooter, for example. There’s no big deal made about it, but it’s widely acknowledged that Bob (who is a normal, average guy) is a clay pigeon shooter, no-one considers it’s a problem, _and it’s never used for comedic or negatove dramatic effect_. It’ll never happen, of course, but I can dream. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/62 "2009-05-05T03:25:41Z")
A ban on guns is both irretractably unconstitutional, and logistically impossible to enforce. It will never happen. It’s a completely phony threat. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/63 "2009-05-05T03:30:11Z")
Definitely impossible to enforce. That’s been demonstrated in Washington, DC and New York City and all the other “gun-free zones” with astronomical murder rates. But totally possible to put down on paper. The only result will be law-abiding people unable to legally acquire weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/64 "2009-05-05T03:34:18Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > …and Sarah Brady because her husband was paralyzed by the bullet of David Hinckley, the would-be killer of Ronald Reagan. John Hinckley, actually. David _Brinkley_, however, may have reported on the assassination attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/65 "2009-05-05T03:37:28Z")
I was thinking of that other asshole who killed John Lennon, Mark DAVID Chapman. The two men looked surprisingly similar, actually. In any case, yeah I know it hurts to lose a family member to anything, but that’s no reason to try to foist a pointless, stupid law on the rest of the country because of your own personal pain. If my son crashed his motorcycle and died, I wouldn’t try to ban motorcycles. If he was killed by a drunk driver, I wouldn’t try to ban beer. If he choked to death on a hot dog, I wouldn’t try to mandate that all food be shredded into a slurry before being consumed, on the chance that you might choke on it. ---
**Author:** ![Alastair\_Moonsong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Alastair\_Moonsong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alastair_Moonsong)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/66 "2009-05-05T04:14:44Z")
**Argent Towers** , throughout this thread you’ve been mentioning the “unfortunate trend” of declining gun exposure to men, women, and children in America as firearms become “villified” and as they (meaning the population as a whole) pass their lives without knowing many people who shoot. I don’t understand this. Can you explain why, exactly, it is bad for people not to have these experiences? I don’t understand how a nation that is familiar and comfortable with guns is any better off than a nation which shuns them. And please, don’t explain the problem as “people who aren’t exposed to guns are more likely to view them in the wrong light” or somesuch - I’m interested in the specific benefits to America (or other applicable nations) of a populace that is at home with firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/67 "2009-05-05T04:33:32Z")
Uh, because it leads to the only people left with the guns being criminals? And will lead to the eventual banning of guns because “nobody uses them anymore?” Some people value the idea of being able to defend themselves. Lawful possession of and training with firearms facilitates this - makes it MUCH easier for, let’s say, a small or weak or elderly person to defend him or herself against a stronger and more powerful attacker. I want to be able to defend myself and my home if I need to. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/68 "2009-05-05T04:43:47Z")
Who do you people think is going to attack you? How do you function in everyday life when you’re always so crippled by paralyzing fear? I think my daughters will be just fine with nobody “exposing” their guns to them, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/69 "2009-05-05T05:11:29Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Definitely impossible to enforce. That’s been demonstrated in Washington, DC and New York City and all the other “gun-free zones” with astronomical murder rates. Well, of course. They can’t possibly keep guns from coming in, not when they are surrounded by gun worshippers. ---
**Author:** ![Alastair\_Moonsong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3e96dc/32.png) [@Alastair\_Moonsong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alastair_Moonsong)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/70 "2009-05-05T05:18:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Uh, because it leads to the only people left with the guns being criminals? And will lead to the eventual banning of guns because “nobody uses them anymore?” > > Some people value the idea of being able to defend themselves. Lawful possession of and training with firearms facilitates this - makes it MUCH easier for, let’s say, a small or weak or elderly person to defend him or herself against a stronger and more powerful attacker. I want to be able to defend myself and my home if I need to. While Diogene’s response may be a bit blunt, it does sum up one of my main questions regarding this particular stance. Are there any sources or statistics detailing incidents in which private gun ownership played a contributing role in thwarting a crime where otherwise the crime would have been committed unopposed? For example, are there any statistics out there showing how many “weak or elderly” people out there have fended off robbers thanks to their firearms? I just can’t imagine that the defending-your-home-from-invaders situation is really all that common. Don’t most home invasions occur when houses are unoccupied? I can certainly understand the logic behind the “if criminals want guns and guns are illegal, they’ll just get illegal guns anyway, so I should be able to legally own a gun to defend myself” argument, but before I can definitively articulate a position on the issue, I’d need more data. Some of the factors that need to be considered: - Does having access to firearms cause people to commit violent crimes where they might otherwise not? I’m thinking of “fit of passion” crimes here. - Is there any evidence (large-scale analysis, not small localized surveys) demonstrating a connection, for better or worse, between gun control/banning and rates of gun posession among criminals? - Is there any statistical evidence to show that posession of a private firearm noticable reduces ones liklihood of being victimized by a home invasion? In essence it comes down to one question: Which will benefit society more, banning guns or easing restrictions? If it turns out that a straight-up nationwide gun ban would (DISCLAIMER: PURELY HYPOTHETICAL SIMPLIFIED EXAMPLE) cause 15,000 less people to be murdered every year, but simultaneously lead to an additional 2,000 home robberies (because the law-abiding owners were unarmed) and also leave a lot of shooting hobbyists out in the cold, well, I think saving those lives would be worth it. Similarly, if it turns out that a gun ban would only save a couple hundred lives yearly while leading to an additional 27,000 burglaries (and shafting the gun hobbyists)… Then maybe it’s not worth banning them. It would all come down to a cost-benefit analysis that could be projected into the future to maximize the benefit (ostencibly in the form of increased personal safety) for all Americans. However, that kind of number-crunching is well and truly beyond my ability, especially with finals looming. -Alastair ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/71 "2009-05-05T05:19:57Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Who do you people think is going to attack you? How do you function in everyday life when you’re always so crippled by paralyzing fear? I don’t think it’s fair to characterize those of us who own firearms for self protection as being paralyzed with fear. I happen to live in an area that is prone to break ins that seem to happen when the owners are home at an alarming rate. A few months ago one of my neighbors shot an intruder and killed him during a break in during the middle of the night. The friends of the intruder returned a few nights later and did a drive by shooting. I don’t believe it’s entirely unreasonable for me to be worried. I would rather have a firearm and not need it than to find myself with a need for one without having it available. > [@](#): > > I think my daughters will be just fine with nobody “exposing” their guns to them, by the way. I agree completely. However, it would be nice if people on both sides of the issue could put a little work into understanding their opposition. Learning a little bit about why some people own guns and what they use isn’t going to hurt them. That said: I think some of the characterizations of the anti-gun crown is grossly unfair. I don’t think it’s fair to describe Sarah Brady as someone who just wants to take away everyone’s toys because of a personal tragedy. Most of the anti-gun crowd honestly believe that more control will make the U.S. a better place to live. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/72 "2009-05-05T06:41:14Z")
I’m not personally anti-gun, but I think one thing that often gets missed about those who are is that anti-gun sentiment tends to be most prevalent in those communities which have most been victimized by gun violence – ie. urban areas with high crime and gang activity. Gun violence isn’t abstract and hypothetical in communities where children get killed by stray bullets, and the idea of adding more guns and more powerful guns to that mix does not strike those people as much of a solution. Don’t bother telling me those guns are illegal. I don’t care. It’s not the point. I’m just trying to say that the fear of guns in those communities is not based on ignorance or effeminate skittishness, but on actually having to worry about themselves or their kids getting shot on a daily basis. The need by so many gun advocates to portray themselves as somehow physically more courageous than non-gun owners annoys me to no end. It’s inaccurate and self-deluded and plays right into stereotypes of gun owners as using the imagined machismo of owning firearms to mask their own insecurities. ---
**Author:** ![telebox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ea924/32.png) [@telebox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/telebox)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/73 "2009-05-05T06:47:45Z")
Speaking as a UK resident with no vested interest either way, what effect would a sustained program of ‘education’ have if kids were subject to a ‘guns are evil’ message from kindergarten onwards ? Would there not be a possibility of a significant shift towards anti gun ownership within say 20 years ? I ask since the nazis indoctinated children to hate jews, and the soviets under Stalin got children to inform on parents by precisely this method. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/74 "2009-05-05T07:09:41Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > I’d like to see a well-rounded character in a major TV show who is a clay pigeon shooter, for example. There’s no big deal made about it, but it’s widely acknowledged that Bob (who is a normal, average guy) is a clay pigeon shooter, no-one considers it’s a problem, _and it’s never used for comedic or negatove dramatic effect_. > > It’ll never happen, of course, but I can dream. It’ll never happen because the number of people who shoot clay pigeons is vanishingly small (and I’d imagine always was so) and would also be almost impossible to portray on screen in a realistic manner related to the plot. ETA: 17,000 people in the US belong to a clay shooting organization. I think I can find more than 17,000 SCA members in just New York state and how many of them ever get a mention on a TV show outside a comedic setting? [http://www.mynsca.com/CMS/NSCADisplayPage.aspx?ContentID=80&PageTitle=NSCA:About%20Us](http://www.mynsca.com/CMS/NSCADisplayPage.aspx?ContentID=80&PageTitle=NSCA:About%20Us) ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/75 "2009-05-05T07:40:07Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It’ll never happen because the number of people who shoot clay pigeons is vanishingly small (and I’d imagine always was so) and would also be almost impossible to portray on screen in a realistic manner related to the plot. > > ETA: 17,000 people in the US belong to a clay shooting organization. I think I can find more than 17,000 SCA members in just New York state and how many of them ever get a mention on a TV show outside a comedic setting? In this context I was using Clay Pigeon shooting as a stand in for “Any Shooting Sport That Isn’t Hunting”, in which case you’ve probably got a couple of million participants. You don’t have to _show_ Bob at the range- just having him coming home _from_ the range and locking his gun away in its gunsafe would be enough. It’s an interesting point about SCA members, but everytime someone gets stabbed the media don’t demonise all SCA members as “Blade-owning nutters” with “Armouries of bladed weapons”, do they? They basically don’t have the unfair negative reputation in the public eye that gun owners do, and so aren’t as badly in need of positive role models on TV, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/76 "2009-05-05T09:04:00Z")
As far as sport shooting goes, it’s a red herring to me. If you enjoy it, great, but it doesn’t affect my view on gun ownership or gun rights in any significant way. In general, I think there’s far too much focus on the sport aspect of gun ownership - politicians easing people by ensuring they respect sportsmen while the entire idea of using guns as a tool for self defense has completely fallen out of the discussion. I’d be fine with the popularization of shooting sports in that it would probably introduce people to guns in a positive way - but as far as discussing gun rights in the context of sporting rights is detrimental to gun rights generally. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/77 "2009-05-05T09:11:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > …but as far as discussing gun rights in the context of sporting rights is detrimental to gun rights generally. Depends where you are- in this part of the world, it’s one of three reasons to own a gun (the other two being “hunting” and “collecting”). No wonder you guys have so many issues with the anti-gun crowd if they only think guns are for killing people or cute, cuddly animals… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/78 "2009-05-05T10:28:22Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It’ll never happen because the number of people who shoot clay pigeons is vanishingly small (and I’d imagine always was so) and would also be almost impossible to portray on screen in a realistic manner related to the plot. I work in Queens and I shoot clay pigeons. It’s neither impossible nor unlikely. There’s at least three good ranges within driving distance on the weekend. Probably more I’m unaware of, I lived four miles from one for most of my life and didn’t realize it. I’m also not a member of any sport shooting association. I really should join the ATA, I just havn’t bothered. One point: Soldiers who grow up shooting are better at shooting and more comfortable around guns than soldiers who don’t. Considerably so. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/79 "2009-05-05T11:06:47Z")
On the other hand, propagating the threat of a ban on guns has been very good for the gun business, and [ammunition sales in particular](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/04/ammo.shortage/index.html?section=cnn_latest): > [@](#): > > “In order to keep up with demand for ammunition, manufacturers are working at full capacity, 24-7,” says Ted Novin, an NSSF spokesman. “Currently demand for ammunition is outpacing supply.” > > Novin says he believes the reason is clear. > > “The increase in demand for firearms and ammunition is largely attributable to gun owner concerns regarding the current political climate,” says Novin, referring to the Obama administration and the Democrat-controlled Congress. > > … > > “Here at Hornady Manufacturing we are breaking our own production records in an attempt to keep up with customer demand. We have added extra shifts, machinery and we are also in the process of expanding our manufacturing plant.” > > Winchester Ammunition posted a similar statement: > > “Winchester Ammunition, like other ammunition manufacturers, has seen the demand for our products increase significantly since last fall. To meet that increased demand, our operations are running 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.” Never let it be said that the gun industry missed an opportunity to exploit paranoia. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197/80 "2009-05-05T15:41:30Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > On the other hand, propagating the threat of a ban on guns has been very good for the gun business, and [ammunition sales in particular](http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/04/ammo.shortage/index.html?section=cnn_latest):Never let it be said that the gun industry missed an opportunity to exploit paranoia. There’s a meaningless statement. Did Hornady et. al. create the present situation? No. If you have evidence otherwise, please be good enough to present it. Hornady et. al. are for-profit companies, some privately held, some public. There is an increased demand for their product due to a combination of factors. It would be idiotically bad business practice for them to refuse to try to meet that demand and maximize their profits. The apprehension concerning gun bans isn’t a product of the gun industry. We have a sitting POTUS with an anti-gun voting history. Gun control was part of his campaign platform. His appointees have called for a revival of the AWB. His party, which has gun control as part of its platform, controls congress. 2nd Ammendment activists like myself have been dealing with these people for years. I know how they work. The fear of new gun control laws is not a ploy by the makers to increase sales. What is driving the sales is people buying now to be sure they have the guns they want even if new laws are passed. Plus, of course, some speculators buying in quantity hoping to turn a profit in the event of a renewed AWB. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-inevitable-that-someday-guns-will-be-banned-in-the-us/495197.md?page=5)