# Is it irrational to be nervous about getting on a Boeing? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 29, 2024, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296 "2024-12-29T13:10:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Saffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saffer/32/6440_2.png) [@Saffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saffer)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/1 "2024-12-29T13:10:29Z")
Probably. But the South Korea crash has not helped. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/2 "2024-12-29T13:31:02Z")
It would be helpful to provide a link to the event… > **[South Korea plane crash: At least 120 killed as Jeju Air aircraft crashes as...](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c4glr85l2ldt)** > > The Jeju Air plane, which was carrying 181 passengers, came off the runway and burst into flames as it landed. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/3 "2024-12-29T13:52:12Z")
Yes, because the odds of dying in a plane crash, regardless of the manufacturer, is negligible, about 1 in 11,000,000. Specifically for Boeing, in 2018–2022, the chance of dying on a flight was 1 in 13,400,000. ---
**Author:** ![3AxisCtrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/ecd19e/32.png) [@3AxisCtrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3AxisCtrl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/4 "2024-12-29T14:20:04Z")
> [@Saffer](#): > > … the South Korea crash has not helped. I’d recommend waiting to hear something about causes before drawing conclusions from this event. There are unconfirmed claims of a birdstrike (probably not the aircraft’s fault). But how this might lead to a gear-up, no-flaps landing is hard to say. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/5 "2024-12-29T14:37:31Z")
Even on its worst days, airline travel today is still the safest or one of the safest means of transportation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/6 "2024-12-29T15:10:34Z")
No, both because of their manufacturing issues mean their safety is inferior and likely getting worse over time as things fall apart, and because otherwise, you encourage _other_ manufacturers to let their own quality and safety slide. “Rationality” isn’t just about looking at historical statistics and ignoring the context. And the relative safety of air travel isn’t some innate feature of the industry, it’s something created over time that Boeing’s practices are undercutting. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/7 "2024-12-29T15:53:55Z")
I’ve flown multiple times on Southwest flights on 737 MAX 8 planes without issue. No idea about any issues that would affect how difficult it is to fly but the passenger compartment is nicer than the Boeing 737-700 and 737-800 planes that are also in their fleet. (Some planes include larger overhead bins that can fit six carry-on bags.) ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/8 "2024-12-29T16:06:56Z")
Keep in mind maintenance by the carrier. The plane that crashed, AIUI, was 10 year old, so it had flown thousands of hours without a major failure since the day it rolled off the assemby line. It’s too early to tell, and it’s tempting to blame Boeing right now, but let’s wait and see what caused this. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/9 "2024-12-29T17:35:50Z")
Like others have said, it’s too early to tell what the cause was, and _right now_ signs point to a severe bird strike, which is going to be something independent of whoever manufactured the airliner. Beyond that, Boeing has made thousands of 737-800s over a period of roughly 14 years. And those thousands of airliners likely have millions of safe hours and miles on them. If they were cars, we’d be heaping accolades on Boeing as the most reliable manufacturer out there. They’re supremely reliable- comparable to the A320 series in recent years; the 737 predates the A320 series by a couple of decades, and the accident incidences reflect that, with the early ones showing a higher accident rate than modern ones. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/10 "2024-12-29T17:41:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, both because of their manufacturing issues mean their safety is inferior and likely getting worse over time as things fall apart, and because otherwise, you encourage _other_ manufacturers to let their own quality and safety slide. Spoken like someone that doesn’t ubderstand airplanes. It’s not like Airbus is any better. > **[List of accidents and incidents involving the Airbus A320 family](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_the_Airbus_A320_family)** > > The following is a list of accidents and incidents involving the Airbus A320 family and Airbus A320neo family of jet airliners. As of March 2024\[update\], 180 aviation accidents and incidents have occurred, including 38 hull loss accidents, resulting in a total of 1490 fatalities. > Through to 2015, the Airbus A320 family has experienced 0.12 fatal hull-loss accidents for every million takeoffs, and 0.26 total hull-loss accidents for every million takeoffs; one of the lowest fatality rates of any ... Most notably: > **[Indonesia AirAsia Flight 8501](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia_AirAsia_Flight_8501)** > > Indonesia AirAsia Flight 8501 was a scheduled international passenger flight operated by Indonesia AirAsia from Surabaya, Java, Indonesia, to Singapore. On 28 December 2014, the Airbus A320 flying the route crashed into the Java Sea, killing all 162 people on board. When search operations ended in March 2015, only 116 bodies had been recovered. It is the only fatal accident involving Indonesia AirAsia. > In December 2015, the Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT or NTSC) r... and: > **[Air France Flight 447](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447)** > > Air France Flight 447 (AF447/AFR447)\[b\] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Paris, France. On 1 June 2009, inconsistent airspeed indications and miscommunication led to the pilots inadvertently stalling the Airbus A330. They failed to recover the plane from the stall, and the plane crashed into the mid-Atlantic Ocean at 02:14 UTC, killing all 228 passengers and crew on board. > The Brazilian Navy recovered the first major wreckage and two bodies from th... ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/11 "2024-12-30T11:42:37Z")
A serious, but probably unanswerable, question. I’m always wary when it comes to statistics (and yet asking a question about it). Air travel is safe. The number of deaths per passenger km (or mile) is extremely low. And of course it is. A lot of people travelling fairly long distances will give that result. But how about individual trips? By that I mean that when I get in my car to go do whatever, that’s one journey. I do a fair number of those every week. So maybe 20 trips per week or a round 1000 in a year. If I travel long distance a lot, I might make up to10 air travels in a year, with a normal year skewing towards the lower end. Obviously, given the number of people in the world that travel by land and sea, using all forms of transportation, the number of travels are many magnitudes larger than the number of flights, and probably not possible to pin down. But, as a thought experiment, given those parameters, is air travel really _that_ much safer, for each completed journey? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/12 "2024-12-30T14:51:05Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Yes, because the odds of dying in a plane crash, regardless of the manufacturer, is negligible, about 1 in 11,000,000. Specifically for Boeing, in 2018–2022, the chance of dying on a flight was 1 in 13,400,000. Serious injuries would also be of interest. If I lose one of my arms or penises, that matters. Aside from that, the risk of dying on a commercial passenger flight is far lower than the risk incurred by commuting to/from the airport on roads. If you commute 20 miles each way to/from the airport, your risk of dying in a car crash is about 1 in 1,880,000. This means that when you consider the overall odds of death due to leaving your home and arriving at a hotel in your destination city, the risk added by the flight itself is pretty much negligible in that overall risk, regardless of whether you fly Boeing or Airbus. But if we want to pick nits… Since the OP is asking about risks associated with planes from a particular manufacturer, you’d want to make some sort of adjustment for crashes that were due exclusively to pilot error. This gets murky in certain cases: - The two Boeing 737-MAX crashes were precipitated by mechanical failure, but then the pilots struggled to respond appropriately. How much of that was due to crappy training on the new system? Was this a Boeing problem, or a pilot problem? And in the end, how much of that risk has been alleviated now because of remedial training? - The crash of Air France 447 (an Airbus product) had a whole lot of pilot error going on, but a big part of the problem was the peculiar way the plane’s instrumentation responded at extreme angles of attack (which confused the pilots), the peculiar way it managed simultaneous control stick inputs from the two pilots, and the fact that there wasn’t a really bright flashing light or loud alarm to tell the pilots that BOTH of them were trying to fly the plane at the same time. As with the 737-MAX crashes, how much do we blame the plane, how much do we blame the pilots, and how much of this risk has been alleviated going forward? It’s complicated. But as noted above, no matter which brand you fly, if you’re willing to accept the risk of driving to/from the airport, then the hazard of the flight itself is, in comparison, negligible. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/13 "2024-12-30T15:01:38Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > one of my […] penises 🤨 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/14 "2024-12-30T15:40:18Z")
> [@Charlie\_Tan](#): > > But how about individual trips? By that I mean that when I get in my car to go do whatever, that’s one journey. I do a fair number of those every week. So maybe 20 trips per week or a round 1000 in a year. If I travel long distance a lot, I might make up to10 air travels in a year, with a normal year skewing towards the lower end. Well, the airline number I could find is 1 accident (not necessarily fatal) per 800K+ flights. Pretty sure that’s still gonna beat the pants off driving. > **[IATA Releases 2022 Airline Safety Performance](https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/2023-releases/2023-03-07-01/?utm_source=chatgpt.com)** > > IATA released its 2022 Safety Report for global aviation. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/15 "2024-12-30T15:49:41Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The two Boeing 737-MAX crashes were precipitated by mechanical failure, but then the pilots struggled to respond appropriately. How much of that was due to crappy training on the new system? Was this a Boeing problem, or a pilot problem? And in the end, how much of that risk has been alleviated now because of remedial training? That is largely an unintended consequence of US regulations. The reason Boeing rebuilt the 373 into the Max (which is different enough that it probably should have been a new plane) is that they were able to make it enough like the other 737s that the FAA gave permission for the training to be substantially the same, so airlines could use the same pilots on 737 Max jets as on the other planes in the 737 series. And it’s way cheaper for airlines, because each pilot aircraft certification is time consuming and expensive. So Boeing knew they could sell more of a “new 737” than of a brand new plane. But the plane is actually quite different, and behaves differently when stuff goes south. Leading to pilot error when the plane failed. I read a really good article about this in some mainstream news source, probably the WSJ, when the crashes were in the news. I’ll go see if i can dig that up, but it was a while ago. Maybe @LSLGuy knows something? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/16 "2024-12-30T15:59:27Z")
I get a little nervous taking any flight. I know it’s safer than driving, but I also have no control over the situation, and driving is also something I do frequently. I still got on every flight and the nervousness goes away once we’re in the air. It does return a little as we descend towards landing too. Being nervous to a great enough degree is irrational I suppose. The OP gives no indication of reaching that level though. ---
**Author:** ![Ellecram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellecram/32/18948_2.png) [@Ellecram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellecram)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/17 "2024-12-30T16:08:21Z")
I fly a lot and for some reason tend to read about plane accidents in detail before I travel. No idea why - maybe tempering fate? Then I sometimes have to take some kind of anti anxiety medication once I am on the plane. I was keenly interested in the Boeing Max 8 after the 2 accidents since my cousin was a 737 pilot at the time (now retired). Then covid took over the news cycle and I forgot all about it. To my surprise I found myself seated on a Max 8 twice this year on one of the legs to Aruba. I admit that my heart did a momentary flutter but again I just forgot about it for the most part. Beautiful interior and smooth ride. But what a tragic history. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/18 "2024-12-30T16:13:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I read a really good article about this in some mainstream news source, probably the WSJ, when the crashes were in the news. I’ll go see if i can dig that up, but it was a while ago. Maybe @LSLGuy knows something? Having flown both MAXes and NGs side by side. … They’re not that different. In fact a lot of stuff on the MAX was deliberately left exactly like the NG: very old fashioned. For the reasons you cite. The process of getting FAA (or the EU’s EASA) approval for a derivative design is 90%-95% smaller (so 5% to 10% the effort) than the FAA/EASA process for certifying a new design. That saves years of time and billions of dollars for the manufacturer. And yes, by keeping the derivative design similar enough from the pilot POV the airline customers can save on training costs and if the types are similar enough, even use the same pilots on both variants. The 737 is in no sense unusual in this. The DC-9 / MD-80 / B717 had the same factors driving its evolution, as has the A320 which started revenue service in 1988, 36 years ago. There are a lot of differences between an early A320 and a brand new one. A lot. IME the real issue with the 737 mishaps is that it is ultimately a 1960s design through and through and requires actual well-trained crew to fly safely. The Airbus is a 1980s design that was designed from the git-go to be used by relatively less-trained more automation-dependent pilots. As a result the Boeing is relatively less forgiving of incompetence. In a world with lots and lots of small tycoon-managed startup airlines in rapidly advancing formerly-poor countries overseen by corrupt regulators, creeping incompetence is becoming a norm. @Der_Trihs has a point that there is a worldwide assault on the historical “safety first almost no matter what it costs” culture of commercial aviation. IMO he places more blame on Boeing than is appropriate. Yet. Perhaps they have been “scared straight.” Perhaps not. We shall see. ---
**Author:** ![Nightaudit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nightaudit/32/17181_2.png) [@Nightaudit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightaudit)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/19 "2024-12-30T18:35:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > In a world with lots and lots of small tycoon-managed startup airlines in rapidly advancing formerly-poor countries overseen by corrupt regulators, creeping incompetence is becoming a norm. Dana Air flight 0992 springs to mind… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2024, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296/20 "2024-12-30T18:39:49Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Spoken like someone that doesn’t ubderstand airplanes. It’s not like Airbus is any better. That’s an argument for not flying at all, not a defense of Boeing. And I understand that if you replace engineers with MBAs like Boeing did, you get worse engineering. With airplanes or anything else. And do keep in mind that the results of their incompetence are still in the pipeline and will continue manifesting in unforeseeable ways for many years. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-irrational-to-be-nervous-about-getting-on-a-boeing/1012296.md?page=2)