# Is it just me or are certain African American groups racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026 "2004-06-18T13:04:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/21 "2004-06-18T15:20:58Z")
> [@saluki\_fan](#): > > So Airman Doors I am not an asshole or a racist, but maybe you should examine yourself, you might not be as smart as you think :wally It doesn’t bode well for you when you’re apparently not even smart enough to work out who your potential allies might be. In case you missed it, **Airman** was expressing some empathy for you position and some support for your argument. :wally indeed. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/22 "2004-06-18T15:23:10Z")
> [@Bruce\_Daddy](#): > > [GIS](http://www.scouting.org.za/clipart/flag.gif) is your friend. Well…not exactly. That’s a _South_ African flag. There are another 50-odd countries that flag doesn’t cover. Getting offended by an African flag is kind of like getting offended by an Asian flag, or a North American flag, and I don’t know why anyone would get offended by a flag that doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/23 "2004-06-18T15:41:16Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Rightfully so, IMO. > > I think most people who have been on this board for any length of time would agree that I am not a regular pile-on-in-the-Pit type. But this is one particular topic where I don’t cut much slack. > > What the fuck about them? > > I acknowledge that many non-slave-holding, very brave men fought for the Confederacy and did so with honour and distinction. > > But if you can’t acknowledge that the confederate flag is irredeemably tainted by its association with slavery and inherently offensive to a large group of people, you are either: > > a) a racist > > b) an asshole > > c) stupid > > d) clueless > > “Nazi shit snipped by Machetero” > > So no, you can’t hang a confederate flag to celebrate your heritage and not expect to get called on it in many areas. Get over it. > > - Tamerlane Likewise, if you can’t acknowledge that someone holding it as just offensive is either: a) a racist b) an asshole c) stupid d) clueless So I accept that clueless, stupid, racist, assholes will often misinterpet my pride in the Stars and Bars. I’m big enough to see the Stars and Stripes is not a flag mainly representing the genocidal slaughter of Indians (which are included in my ancestory). It’s unfortunate that so many are so small that they cannot see the the Stars and Bars similarly. So by thinking that my flag is ‘iredeemable’ I include you as a clueless, stupid, racist, asshole as well. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/24 "2004-06-18T15:47:23Z")
> [@](#): > > So I accept that clueless, stupid, racist, assholes will often misinterpet my pride in the Stars and Bars. I’m big enough to see the Stars and Stripes is not a flag mainly representing the genocidal slaughter of Indians (which are included in my ancestory). It’s unfortunate that so many are so small that they cannot see the the Stars and Bars similarly. The difference is that the US was not set up expressly to slaughter Indians, but the Confederacy’s sole purpose was for white Southerners to maintain rights to own slaves. White supremacy is inextricably bound with the Confederate legacy. > [@](#): > > So by thinking that my flag is ‘iredeemable’ I include you as a clueless, stupid, racist, asshole as well. 🆒 _Tu quoque_ fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/25 "2004-06-18T15:47:42Z")
When the American flag is primarily used by groups that want to rid the country of Native Americans, then maybe the average person will tie it to that cause. It has nothing to do with how small minded someone is, and any reasonable person knows that. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/26 "2004-06-18T15:52:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > \*What is **an** African flag? > [@chique](#): > > That’s **a** … [African] flag 😉 ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/27 "2004-06-18T16:03:11Z")
I’ve said this until I’m blue in the face, but I’m gonna try once more: The Stars and Bars flag that people persist in calling the “Confederate Flag” is not, cannot be, and never was the flag of the Confederate States of America. It was a fucking battle standard and that’s all it was. Why do you persist in calling it the “Confederate Flag?” Why do you give it a legitimancy it shouldn’t have? And to the OP, some people are racists and the color of their skin hasn’t got one damn thing to do with it. Their ethnicity hasn’t got one damn thing to do with it. Where they live hasn’t got one damn thing to do with it. Whatever flag or banner they wave in the air hasn’t got one damn thing to do with it. Some people are racists----get over it. Try to educate the poor, benighted, ignorant slobs instead of castigating them. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/28 "2004-06-18T16:03:24Z")
Firstly, imagine you were in, say, Japan. You were accepted, but never quite felt like everyone else. You start a club with some other westeners. Can you see why you might? Can you see why you might think you should be allowed to? Secondly, certainly some black people are racist, and there’s bound to be some groups of them, and possibly people don’t like to criticise because they’re afraid they’d appear racist, or whining. But I don’t think that covers the groups you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/29 "2004-06-18T16:06:26Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > . . . The Stars and Bars flag that people persist in calling the “Confederate Flag” is not, cannot be, and never was the flag of the Confederate States of America. . . I knew that. And I’m from the North. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/30 "2004-06-18T16:34:15Z")
**Genghis Bob** said: quote]I knew that. And I’m from the North. [/quote] And I am glad to see that you called it the “Confederate Battle Flag” because that is what it was and is, to this good day. I guess I failed to make my main point, because I was pissed off, but I suspect that I could fly any or all of the official flags of the Confederate States of America and there would be damn few people who would recognize a single one of them. (There were three, at different times, IIRC.) ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/31 "2004-06-18T16:38:09Z")
> [@LouisB](#): > > I’ve said this until I’m blue in the face, but I’m gonna try once more: The Stars and Bars flag that people persist in calling the “Confederate Flag” is not, cannot be, and never was the flag of the Confederate States of America. It was a fucking battle standard and that’s all it was. Though it did figure into the design of the [second](http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCsbr.htm) and [third](http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTC3dnat.htm) flags. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/32 "2004-06-18T17:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **gobear** said: > The sort of people who admire the Confederacy and its goals. The sort of people who admire the Confederacy for what? Its goal of seceeding from the Union when it no longer felt politically allied with the rest of the federal government? The sort of people who were fighting to make their states independent of the United States government at the time and who believed so strongly in their right to leave the Union that they were willing to die for it? The Confederates were not out-and-out ‘bad guys’, and as horrible as the institution of slavery was, slavery itself is not the Confederacy, nor is it the Confederate flag. To you the flag may invoke the idea of slavery, to me it draws forth the idea of freedom to leave a government that the people feel is no longer working for them. To a lot of Americans, the American flag represents a great country, land of opportunity, and a pretty good place to be that has room for and a desire for improvement. To some americans and to many others around the world, the American flag represents greedy, murdering capitalist imperialists bent on dominating the world, and they burn it as some of us would wave it. Either way, either flag is merely a symbol, and symbols have different meanings to different folks. If someone wants to wave a Confederate flag to represent his belief that states should be free to leave this country, I may or may not agree with him, but trying to get him to take it down would be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/33 "2004-06-18T17:18:17Z")
There has sort of been an issue like this with the Union Jack/Union Flag, the offical UK Flag, in recent years. It’s changed in the last couple of years (thank god) but I remember people joking/sneering/laughing at the flag as a symbol of fascism/National Front/BNP - mainly because far right wing groups were those most likely to use the flag most prominently. But as for the OP - you have ethnic-only computer rooms? I find that totally, utterly indefensible. That is the worst kind of segretation - it’s apartheid. About the only excuse for something like that could be a private room for Muslim females (though I personally oppose this too). Regardless of whether “white” people still have the advantage or not, it certainly doesn’t advance “ethnic” people’s causes to have minority-only labs at a place of study. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/34 "2004-06-18T17:32:01Z")
> [@saluki\_fan](#): > > I’m all for fairness and equality, but until EVERYBODY starts acting fair and treating everybody as such the world can never achieve an equal society. We tried that. Didn’t work. So we’re trying this. > [@](#): > > For all the work towards being color blind our society has put forth, it’s high time these certain minority groups realize that in fact they are only spreading racism and work towards uniting everybody, not just favoring their own race! Are you eligible for a scholarship from the United Negro College Fund? The NAACP? Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/35 "2004-06-18T18:01:54Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > The sort of people who admire the Confederacy for what? Its goal of seceeding from the Union when it no longer felt politically allied with the rest of the federal government? The sort of people who were fighting to make their states independent of the United States government at the time and who believed so strongly in their right to leave the Union that they were willing to die for it? > > The Confederates were not out-and-out ‘bad guys’, and as horrible as the institution of slavery was, slavery itself is not the Confederacy, nor is it the Confederate flag. To you the flag may invoke the idea of slavery, to me it draws forth the idea of freedom to leave a government that the people feel is no longer working for them. And do you know the government was no longer working for them? Because they feared that they would not be able to export slavery to the new territories in the West and would thus be hemmed in by Northern political hegemony. **The Confederacy was founded on the freedom to keep slaves, period**. There’s your “freedom” and states’ rights." ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/36 "2004-06-18T18:17:12Z")
There’s no distinction to be made between the Confederacy and slavery. By flying the battle flag of the Confederacy, you’re essentially flying a statement that you will fight for the right to enslave blacks. That’s what that flag stood for, and that’s what it stands for today. All this bullshit about what the battle flag means to individuals is ridiculous. It doesn’t matter what you _think_ the Confederate battle flag should represent. It’s the fucking flag they flew when they shot at American soldiers in their fight to keep slavery alive. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/37 "2004-06-18T19:11:58Z")
> [@Jeff Olsen](#): > > Though it did figure into the design of the [second](http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTCsbr.htm) and [third](http://www.confederateflags.org/national/FOTC3dnat.htm) flags. Which doesn’t alter the fact that the flag in question was never the “Confedarate Flag.” It is the mis-nomer that irritates me. How dificult would it be to call it what it was? \*\*Ghengis Bob \*\* did, and by his own admission, he is a “northerner.” I will submit this: If the flag in question had never existed, there would still be something that racists of whatever stamp would use to incite hatred. I think the best thing to do about racism, **on a personal basis** , is to ignore it. Responding in kind only makes the situation worse. And, as a white male, I have been the target of racism from blacks several times. That is not to claim that I know what it is like to experience it on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/38 "2004-06-18T19:50:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **gobear** said: > And do you know the government was no longer working for them? Because they feared that they would not be able to export slavery to the new territories in the West and would thus be hemmed in by Northern political hegemony. The Confederacy was founded on the freedom to keep slaves, period. There’s your “freedom” and states’ rights." Holy shit you’re fucking dense. It doesn’t matter _why_ those states felt that the interests of the federal government no longer matched their own and wanted to leave the Union, what matters is that they _did_ want to leave the Union, and that they fought for the ability to do just that. The South no longer felt that the federal government was doing anything effective for it, and wanted to leave. The ‘Stars-and-Bars’ battle flag represents the fight to secede, at least to me, and has not one goddamn thing to do with slavery or black people. The question of whether a state or group of states can leave the Union because the interests of the federal government no longer matches their own has, sadly, been answered in the negative, and I consider that a major sore point in the history of my country. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/39 "2004-06-18T20:08:32Z")
I just have to add… to me, the Confederate Battle Standard means one thing - and those Duke boys never meant any harm. _ducks and runs_ ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/40 "2004-06-18T20:10:33Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Holy shit you’re fucking dense. That’s rich coming from an historical illiterate. Don’t presume to lecture people who actually have degrees in this because it only makes you look even more unintelligent than you are. > [@](#): > > It doesn’t matter _why_ those states felt that the interests of the federal government no longer matched their own and wanted to leave the Union, what matters is that they _did_ want to leave the Union, and that they fought for the ability to do just that. Look, you uneducated dope, the reason why the Confederacy seceded goes to the heart of the flag’s offensiveness to racial sensitivities. The Stars and Bars is the rallying signal for white supremeacy and to Southern resistance to racial equality. > [@](#): > > The South no longer felt that the federal government was doing anything effective for it, and wanted to leave. The ‘Stars-and-Bars’ battle flag represents the fight to secede, at least to me, and has not one goddamn thing to do with slavery or black people. Who cars what it represents to you, dipshit? You delusions have nothing to do with the historical record. From Confederate Vice=president Alexander Stephens’ "Cornerstone Speech: > [@](#): > > The Constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly used against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. > Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it-when the "storm came and wind blew, it fell. > Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. From the Texas declaration of secession: > [@](#): > > We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable. . I can go on, but it certainly seems that the Confederates themselves proudly admitted that they were fighting to preserve black slavery. So who are you to contradict them? Now go read on the matter before you spew more ignorance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026.md?page=3)