# Is it just me or are certain African American groups racist? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 18, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026 "2004-06-18T13:04:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/61 "2004-06-19T04:18:14Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Looks like I made the right decision to swear off Dopefests. People I think of as friends turn out not to be. Dude, don’t take it so personally. I was just busting your balls, so to speak. 🙂 It’s just the “I know and you don’t because I have a degree” thing has smacked me in the face far too many times. It’s like my mother-in-law said to me the other day. She said “The difference between you and me is that I’m overqualified and everyone knows it, and you’re overqualified and nobody believes you”. That’s not to say that I’m not agreeing with some of the stuff you said, but dammit, it’s because you’re smart and learned, not because you sat through four years of bullshit and got a degree. Get where I’m coming from? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/62 "2004-06-19T05:06:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **gobear** said: > I can go on, but it certainly seems that the Confederates themselves proudly admitted that they were fighting to preserve black slavery. So who are you to contradict them? Every single one of them? Really? Yeah, I’m sure some of them did. Of course some of those slave _owners_ were black. > [@](#): > > **Jimmy Chitwood** said: > So the reasons behind an action don’t matter if, hypothetically, that action could be undertaken for positive results? If I kill my family because I don’t like them, will you wear a T-shirt with my face on it because someday, you might have to kill an intruder? That’s a lovely scarecrow you have there. > [@](#): > > Who cares what it represents to you? Then why the fuck should I care what it means to someone else? Or would you avoid having an American flag at your home if your neighbors found it ‘offensive’ to them because to them it symbolizes the capitalist greed? > [@](#): > > That’s the lesson you take from the Civil War? I consider that a major idiot point in the history of shit you’ve said. I’m flattered that you’ve paid so much attention. > [@](#): > > **Ogre** said: > FIND A NEW SYMBOL. No thank you. > [@](#): > > **Captain Amazing** said: > So, it seems, catsix, not wanting to be mistaken for a racist, and not wanting to offend, it would be polite to use another symbol. If someone wants to mistake me for a racist because I don’t have a problem with someone else using the Stars and Bars, then that’s their fucking problem. All of you who have such a problem with the Stars and Bars, would you have the same problem with say, the flag of Saudi Arabia, as being representative of a totalitarian monarchy that is inherently sexist and is irrevocably stained in the blood of dead women and girls? Well? > [@](#): > > **Guinastasia** said: > catsix, what right to secede? There’s no such thing. Jefferson would be mighty disappointed to hear that people, states, do not have a right to break away from a federal government that they no longer feel is in their best interests. > [@](#): > > **gobear** said: > If you want to call knowing what I’m talking about and backing up my posts with citations from primary sources “elitist,” as opposed to spewing uninformed nonsense like Catsix did, fine by me. BTW, you wrote a good, well-thought-out post. Disagreeing with you is not the equivalent of ‘uninformed.’ You see me throwing my degree into every computer related thread around here when people disagree with me? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/63 "2004-06-19T05:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess I failed to make my main point, because I was pissed off, but I suspect that I could fly any or all of the official flags of the Confederate States of America and there would be damn few people who would recognize a single one of them. So then why not fly the established/original one? Someone is bound to ask, “What flag is that?” You can then smugly say, “Blah blah states’ rights blah blah way of life blah blah honor and integrity,” and, if you do a good enough job espousing your beliefs, you might actually watch someone walk away with a historical perspective other than the eighth-grade “The evil South wanted slaves and the pristine North didn’t, so there was a war to end slavery and the good guys won.” Without taking any sides on this, you have to understand that the general public sees the flag you choose to fly as symbol of racism. I’m not debating whether or not it _actually_ is, just how it’s seen. So your expression of “national pride” is going to be met with significant initial resistance based solely on the symbol you’ve chosen to use. And you should be ready for that. You think you are, but all your arguments would be better directed toward supporting the flying of the Confederate NATIONAL flag, and I think you know that. Besides, you were never a soldier. You didn’t fight in that war. Why fly a battle flag? Battle’s over. Has been for a while, IIRC. At the end of the day, do you want to express pride in a set of values, or do you want to get noticed? I’m willing to bet on the latter. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/64 "2004-06-19T05:14:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > o, you could call it a flag that represents failure and treason. Yes, I said treason. Technically, it was, at least in my eyes. > > **catsix** , what right to secede? There’s no such thing. Ermm, darling, by this logic the U.S. comited treason against the British Empire. I really, _really_, don’t want to continue this bullshit highjack about the confedaracy, but let’s use some logic here. It was a rebellion that failed. It had it’s reasons, and though slavery was a big factor, slavery was a factor only because it was tied to cotton. Almost all wars are fought over money and resources. Yes, even the Revolutionary War. Now, the OP was really about affirmative action. Anybody want to get back to that? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/65 "2004-06-19T05:17:12Z")
Well, I don’t think, **catsix** , that someone is automatically a racist. But I think you can understand WHY the flag is offensive to so many. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/66 "2004-06-19T05:26:36Z")
Because 140 years after a failed rebellion fought because the southern states feared that their economy would die as the federal government seemed poised to rapidly change the things that kept that economy floating in the first place there are some people so hooked on being offended that they actually believe there’s nothing to the Civil War other than ‘North good, South bad.’ I’m sure someone with a history degree will come in here and tell me that the South, and everyone who fought for it, were just slave-owning racist bastards and stood for nothing other than that, and that I’m an idiot for thinking otherwise. I am, apparently, also a moron for thinking that any people have the right to rebel against and leave their government. Maybe I’m wrong, but I count a lot of dead idiots in my company. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/67 "2004-06-19T05:36:30Z")
No, I don’t think that every Southernor was an evil slave-owning bastard. But I do believe that “The Cause”, as it was referred to, was in essence, morally wrong. To own another human being as property is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/68 "2004-06-19T05:58:35Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > But I do believe that “The Cause”, as it was referred to, was in essence, morally wrong. To own another human being as property is wrong. Not to belabor the obvious here, **Guin** , but I don’t think that there is a single member of the SDMB that would tell you that slavery was a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/69 "2004-06-19T06:08:29Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Ermm, darling, by this logic the U.S. comited treason against the British Empire. ? You don’t think the founding fathers would have been hanged for treason if the revolution had failed? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/70 "2004-06-19T06:16:17Z")
“We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately.” - Ben Franklin If you succeed, none dare call it treason. The South failed. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/71 "2004-06-19T06:17:56Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > You don’t think the founding fathers would have been hanged for treason if the revolution had failed? I’m sure they would have. But it wouldn’t mean they never had a point, or a perfectly understandable reason for trying to secede from their ruling government. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/72 "2004-06-19T06:19:39Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > “We must all hang together, or most assuredly we will all hang separately.” - Ben Franklin Interseting quote, especially considering that he meant they must bind together against their own government. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/73 "2004-06-19T06:30:38Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > I’m sure they would have. But it wouldn’t mean they never had a point, or a perfectly understandable reason for trying to secede from their ruling government. They did have a point and an understandable reason. They did not have a right, though. At least, not as far as the British were concerned. It’s treason if you don’t win. Mostly because the party in power gets to define what treason is. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/74 "2004-06-19T06:36:01Z")
I should have addressed this: > [@silenus](#): > > If you succeed, none dare call it treason. The South failed. Get over it. It has been said that history is written by the victors. While that is undoubtedly correct, only a fool believes that it’s the whole story. We do a disservice to history, and ourselves, when we write off the losers so callously. **Spooje** asked me if I thought the founding fathers would have beem hanged if they lost. I’m sure they would have. Would that make their democratic ideals moot, just because they lost the war? No, of course not. This principle applies to all periods of history. We should try to look beyond the party line of the victors in order to really understand what has happened before, and who we are because of it. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/75 "2004-06-19T06:41:22Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Mostly because the party in power gets to define what treason is. Which was kinda my point to **Guin**. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/76 "2004-06-19T06:42:17Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > It’s just the “I know and you don’t because I have a degree” thing has smacked me in the face far too many times. It’s like my mother-in-law said to me the other day. > … > > That’s not to say that I’m not agreeing with some of the stuff you said, but dammit, it’s because you’re smart and learned, not because you sat through four years of bullshit and got a degree. Get where I’m coming from? [momentary hijack] Oh, _tell me about it!_ It’s really bad with art degrees, which in many cases mean exactly zippo about the person’s artistic ability. I’ve seen examples of this time and again—the coworker who bragged about her art degree, but I never saw or heard anything about her doing any artwork (Her eyes bugged out when I—yes, humble non-degreed me—was in prestiguous art shows and galleries. Why? _Because I actually create artwork!_ And because I’m a half-way decent artist! Fancy that! That’s what art galleries want: artists who bestir themselves to create good artwork. Not all galleries are interested in degrees. Degrees don’t sell nonexistant or crappy paintings.) I once attended a Life Drawing class where a student was once pressed to “fill in” for the absent teacher. This student bragged that she had been asked to “cover” the class because she had a degree. The problem was, this woman had very little ability for Life Drawing—I’d always assumed she was a newbie. But she was going to _teach_ the rest of us, many who had 200% more ability and skill than her? Just because she had a degree? Absurd! That’s the kind of thing I hear too often. “But I have an [art/ceramics/basketweaving/tadpole breeding] degree!” means absolutely nothing to me. Show me what you know and what you can do and then I’ll decide if that degree was worth even mentioning. [/end of momentary hijack] Regarding the Confederate flag: I have no stake in this; I’m a Valley girl who learned what I know about Southern History from movies and history classes many years ago. Don’t know jack shit and I still am befuddled as to why people want to fight a war that ended a long time ago. But I have a friend who is from the South, and he’s given me long lectures about what the Civil War was _really_ about, and his message sounds similar to what **catsix** is saying. Whether or not either of them are right, it seems to me that they _believe_ what they believe about what the flag symbolizes. My friend is definitely not “pro-slavery” and he’s not a bad guy. This is what he believes. :shrug: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/77 "2004-06-19T07:14:34Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Holy shit you’re fucking dense. > > It doesn’t matter _why_ those states felt that the interests of the federal government no longer matched their own and wanted to leave the Union, what matters is that they _did_ want to leave the Union, and that they fought for the ability to do just that. The South no longer felt that the federal government was doing anything effective for it, and wanted to leave. The ‘Stars-and-Bars’ battle flag represents the fight to secede, at least to me, and has not one goddamn thing to do with slavery or black people. > > The question of whether a state or group of states can leave the Union because the interests of the federal government no longer matches their own has, sadly, been answered in the negative, and I consider that a major sore point in the history of my country. I’ll get to the last paragraph first: The question of whether a state or group of states can leave the Union because they wish to continue the barbaric practice of oppressing a significant portion of their populations _because they are black_ has been answered in the negative. The interests of the Federal Government matched the interests of slaves rather well. Now, to this “it doesn’t represent hate because _I_ say so” bullshit: I hereby declare that the flag of the Third Reich represents German economic recovery, because that’s the part that was important to me. I’m going to start flying it, and those Jewish types that say I’m promoting hatred are _wrong_. It doesn’t matter _why_ we slaughtered their ancestors, because to me that was important to Germany’s economic recovery! I’m **catsix** , and anyone who says it stands for the opression of Jews is _dense_! This is not a Godwin post- the Nazi analogy is the closest parallel to your ridiculous argument I could think of. ---
**Author:** ![celestina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/258eb7/32.png) [@celestina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/celestina)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/78 "2004-06-19T07:36:46Z")
Wow. I wonder if I’ll get flamed if I say that I can’t believe folks are still harpin’ over this shit. [celestina scratchin’ her head] Oh well. It’s just another one of them mysteries what can’t be solved. Gee. I wonder if I’ll get flamed if I say that I just have a hard time really caring about the topic the OP posted. [giggle] I’m just shocked that I’ve finally caught **Tamerlane** cussin’. Really. I didn’t think he’d ever get around to sayin’ naughty words. And in the Pit of all places. 🙂 Okay. I have nothin’ further useful or otherwise to add to this thread. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/79 "2004-06-19T11:24:56Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > That’s not to say that I’m not agreeing with some of the stuff you said, but dammit, it’s because you’re smart and learned, not because you sat through four years of bullshit and got a degree. Get where I’m coming from? Then if I make some comments about the military that are just out-and-out wrong, don’t bring up that you serve in the military and have some basis of expertise in your MOS because that’s all bullshit, right? > [@](#): > > I once attended a Life Drawing class where a student was once pressed to “fill in” for the absent teacher. This student bragged that she had been asked to “cover” the class because she had a degree. The problem was, this woman had very little ability for Life Drawing—I’d always assumed she was a newbie. But she was going to teach the rest of us, many who had 200% more ability and skill than her? Just because she had a degree? Absurd! And who’s to say you had more ability than her? If education is unimportant, then so is your experience because anyone can take a snapshot, right? And as the sagacious **Catsix** has so wisely shown us, even if renowned judges of art call my product utter crap, I can still call myself an expert artist because mere assertion trumps knowledge and experience. > [@](#): > > Disagreeing with you is not the equivalent of ‘uninformed.’ You see me throwing my degree into every computer related thread around here when people disagree with me? As I pointed out, you’re not disagreeing with me, but with the Confederates themselves. The several states in their declarations of secession, as well as leading Confederates government officials, stated that their reason for doing so was to preserve slavery in the face of Northern aggression. Argue with them, not me. There is an argument to be made for state’s rights and opposition to strong central government as the theoretical basis for secession, but “the war had nothing to do with slavery because I say so” isn’t the way to go about it. You could have brought up John Calhoun and the nullification crisis of 1832, and you could have given interesting quotes from the Confederate constitution to bolster your claim, but then you already knew all that and were just waiting to lay me out with a devastatingly logical and thoroughly researched argument, weren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2004, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026/80 "2004-06-19T12:20:28Z")
I am from the South and I am old enough to remember Jim Crow and segregation and police dogs attacking Civil Rights demonstrators and many more horrible things of which we are all aware. This is my take on the Stars and Bars– I personally have no affinity for it. There is much about the South and its history to be proud of but I do not need the flag do so. I suspect that black folks who find it racist do so because the people who were lynching them and beating them and raping them and ignoring their basic human right to dignity used it as a symbol. The could not care less that it was a battle flag in 1860, but care very much indeed that it was a symbol of repression in 1960. Fly it if you will, but it is idiotic and myopic to assert its earlier meaning when a new one has supplanted it. And your beef is with the ones who misused it as a symbol, and not with the victims. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-just-me-or-are-certain-african-american-groups-racist/251026.md?page=5)