# Is it Legal? Elon Musk ultimatum. Do ‘extremely hardcore’ work or get out **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 16, 2022, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040 "2022-11-16T17:11:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/101 "2022-11-18T15:55:29Z")
That’s what I’m saying… the way he did it skates pretty close to what’s called “constructive dismissal”, meaning that rather than fire people, the employer just ratchets up the awfulness of the work/working environment until they quit, under the thinking that since they quit, the employer doesn’t owe them anything. It’s illegal in most states, although it probably involves going to court to collect anything. But in a big, high profile case like this, it might be easier. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/102 "2022-11-18T16:03:07Z")
Twitter is losing institutional knowledge. That can never be recovered. We’re supposed to document and put comments in our code. That’s still not a substitute for talking to the people that have maintained it for several years. I knew our payroll system inside out. I had written dozens of SQL reports against the database. I knew the tables and their relationships very well. I certainly wasn’t irreplaceable. However, a new guy can’t learn it overnight, especially without training from experienced staff. It’s going to be a shit show at Twitter for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/103 "2022-11-18T16:53:09Z")
What always gets me is how pointless this is. You’re working your employees to an early grave for what, exactly? So those new Twitter features come out in March instead of May? Who gives a fuck. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/104 "2022-11-18T18:28:08Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > What always gets me is how pointless this is. You’re working your employees to an early grave for what, exactly? Uh, @Revtim, yeaaah, I need to talk to you about your TPS reports…[did you get the memo about the new cover sheets?](https://youtu.be/0flsg4GMQxQ) Stranger ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/105 "2022-11-18T19:05:42Z")
Same. I don’t understand why some people see him as a hero. Hero of what? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/106 "2022-11-18T19:46:28Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > So those new Twitter features come out in March instead of May? Who gives a fuck. The man who stands to make money from that feature between March and May gives many fucks. And in a dictatorial work environment, his fucks are the only ones that matter. Utterly deplorable, but comprehendible enough. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/107 "2022-11-18T19:50:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > We’re supposed to document and put comments in our code. That’s still not a substitute for talking to the people that have maintained it for several years. I knew our payroll system inside out. I had written dozens of SQL reports against the database. I knew the tables and their relationships very well. I certainly wasn’t irreplaceable. However, a new guy can’t learn it overnight, especially without training from experienced staff. I did put comments in my code, lots of them, but that was no substitute for documenting the architecture and design decisions, which I did before I retired. I bet no one has done that for Twitter code. I bet no one even documented the state of code in progress before they left. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s hard to think what other than “i desperately need to keep this job” would keep employees there. That basically means H1B employees, bad employees who will have trouble finding new jobs, and maybe some edge cases of people with a desperately ill spouse who don’t want to deal with a new insurance company or something. That’s not a recipe to retain a strong staff. During the AT&T trivestiture, the leaving package was so good that half of everyone left - with no hard feelings. A few people were considered so valuable that they were not given the package. They all left within six months. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/108 "2022-11-18T20:26:51Z")
Same thing happeneed at my company. They gave us amazing severance packages when they shut down the office. Very few people complained. If I were a $200,000-$300,000 Twitter employee, I would be very worried about being able to find an equivalent job. Silicon Valley is currently laying off employees like crazy, and it’s going to get worse. Twitter is not an exception in this regard - it could be that anyone who owned Twitter needed to seriously downsize the staff. Those employees who quit are going to be competing with the 11,000 Meta employees being layed off (three times as many as Twitter), Amazon just layed off 10,000 employees, Lyft cut 700. Stripe cut 1,100. Microsoft cut 1,000 jobs. Coinbase cut 1,100. And those are just some of the big ones. There are smaller layoffs going on all over the place. In addition, tech firms are leaving SF and California in general because of the high cost of living, crime, and because the workforce is expensive and demanding. I wouldn’t be surprised if Musk moves Twitter to Texas. Dumping lots of employees could be a precursor to that. He wouldn’t do it now, but perhaps in a year or two. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/109 "2022-11-18T20:44:16Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if Musk moves Twitter to Texas. Dumping lots of employees could be a precursor to that. He wouldn’t do it now, but perhaps in a year or two. Are you operating under the misapprehension that Twitter will still be a functioning social media platform “in a year or two”? Between the debt, multitude of mounting lawsuits, diaspora of entire teams of employees who are critical for keeping the system operational, loss of essential administrative business functions aside from coders and developers, fleeing of active users (i.e. the entire profit base of the company), and completely dysfunctional remaining executive management which is doing his level best to make it impossible for the platform to recover, I would be surprised if Twitter were even still an operational platform at Christmas. Musk can move whatever he wants to Texas but without people to run the organization and maintain the platform it is just a stupid icon and a “404 Not Found – HTTP” message. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![ctnguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@ctnguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ctnguy)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/110 "2022-11-18T20:55:20Z")
The position is quite different in Europe, where Twitter does have a large number of employees. > (Whole thread, that’s just the first Tweet.) ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/111 "2022-11-18T21:19:00Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > During the AT&T trivestiture, the leaving package was so good that half of everyone left - with no hard feelings. A few people were considered so valuable that they were not given the package. They all left within six months. Similar to what happened at my company when they wanted to reduce staff (especially more expensive longtime employees). They offered a way too generous package and panicked when quadruple the number of people expected took the early retirement. They could keep some people for a little while, but a bunch of others were rehired as contract workers while they had all their retirement benefits. Expensive lesson. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/112 "2022-11-18T21:53:10Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Are you operating under the misapprehension that Twitter will still be a functioning social media platform “in a year or two”? If we were still allowed to wager here, I would gladly wager even money that Twitter will still exist in a year or two. Be careful not to stay in a bubble. I keep reading how Twitter is shedding users like crazy, but according to Musk Twitter is gaining users at a rapid clip. > Elon makes mistakes because he moves fast, but like an Agile programmer he refactors quickly when things go wrong. I think we’re seeing the kind of iterative engineering philosophy applied to management of Twitter. I don’t know if it will work, but it’s interesting to watch Musk play it all out in public. > > It’s nice to see the transparency, even if it does give ammo to his haters. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/113 "2022-11-18T21:54:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > In addition, tech firms are leaving SF and California in general because of the high cost of living, crime, and because the workforce is expensive and demanding. Conservative media have been talking this claim up for several years now, but [facts don’t seem to be bearing it out.](https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-03-23/california-tech-exodus-was-a-bust) > [@](#): > > […] Yet “the big tech superstar cities aren’t going anywhere,” [Brookings Institute specialist on geography of work Mark] Muro told me. “There’s a suggestion that we’re on the brink of an entirely different geography. I don’t think recent history or the nature of the technologies point in that direction.” […] > > “The California metropolises really do retain their irreplaceable depth and strength,” Muro says. “That’s not to say there won’t be some movement. Early in the period we saw some exiting, especially from the Bay Area, but it turned out that much of it was within California, rather than to Kansas.” […] > > There have been some clues in recent years that the exodus of big business from California hasn’t been all it’s cracked up to be. […] > > Some of the assertions about a California exodus aim to make political, rather than economic or demographic, points. Consider [an August 2021 paper](https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/21117-ohanian-vranich.pdf) by Lee Ohanian of the Hoover Institution and Joseph Vranich, who happens to be the CEO of a Texas business relocation firm. > > Far from being a sober statistical survey of business moves, the paper is more of a screed comprising the usual conservative beefs about California, such as too much regulation. […] > > The political environment is also an imponderable factor. Whether aggressively conservative politics in Texas and Florida, including hostility to the LGBTQ community and the contraction of women’s reproductive health rights, will slow the influx of young and well-educated workers is hard to tell at the moment. > > But the early signs should worry those states’ leaders. Tech journalist Kara Swisher, who is gay, recently [canceled a tech conference](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-03-09/florida-loses-out-on-pivot-conference-in-backlash-over-don-t-say-gay-vote) scheduled for next year in Miami to protest the state’s so-called “Don’t Say Gay” law. That last point about draconian social-conservative legislation is another factor to bear in mind when speculating about the geographic future of in-person work. A significant number of educated young people have zero interest in living under homophobic, transphobic, abortion-banning state regimes. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/114 "2022-11-18T21:57:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592619267803185152?s=20&t=YUu85EnlDQM9n1u3d5h59A](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592619267803185152?s=20&t=YUu85EnlDQM9n1u3d5h59A) > > It’s nice to see the transparency, even if it does give ammo to his haters. Uh, Sam, Musk did not actually fire and rehire Twitter workers called “Ligma” and “Johnson”. [That was a joke.](https://www.indiatimes.com/trending/wtf/pranksters-rahul-ligma-daniel-johnson-meet-elon-musk-584890.html) There was no actual managerial “transparency” or admission of “mistake” or “refactor[ing] quickly when things go wrong” on Musk’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/115 "2022-11-18T21:59:42Z")
Musk simps see him as a key ally in their culture war. It’s as simple as that. They’ll spin any dumbass thing he does as a 4-D genius chess move as long as he keeps “owning the libs”. See above. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/116 "2022-11-18T22:07:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Elon makes mistakes because he moves fast, but like an Agile programmer he refactors quickly when things go wrong. I think we’re seeing the kind of iterative engineering philosophy applied to management of Twitter. I don’t know if it will work, but it’s interesting to watch Musk play it all out in public. I don’t see any “philosophy” at all. Certainly not anything having to do with “Agile” as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/117 "2022-11-18T22:29:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Be careful not to stay in a bubble. I keep reading how Twitter is shedding users like crazy, but according to Musk Twitter is gaining users at a rapid clip. _Seventy-six trombones led the big parade / with a hundred and ten cornets close at hand._ _They were followed by rows and rows of the finest virtuosos / the cream of every famous band!_ > [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t see any “philosophy” at all. > > Certainly not anything having to do with “Agile” as I understand it. [The values and principles of Agile software development](http://www.ambysoft.com/essays/agileManifesto.html) The Musk takeover of Twitter has nothing to do with “Agile” philosophy. It started as a ‘joke’—I use that term in the loosest possible sense—with an oh-so-clever 4:20 reference with no due diligence, was elevated to a legal obligation with Musk doing everything to worm his way out of the purchase offer and poison the deal, then Musk went full in so as not to lose his $1B penalty payout, then walking into Twitter headquarters with a large sink for the lulz, then firing the executive management and half the staff almost immediately followed by misleading and confusing statements to remaining staff that are likely in violation of California employment law. Musk’s only ‘philosophy’, such as it can be said to exist, is [“I can do what I want!”](http://img.picturequotes.com/2/54/53986/not-to-worry-i-have-a-permit-i-can-do-what-i-want-ron-quote-1.jpg). Musk has been fortunate enough to have attracted actually competent vehicles into his more successful ventures and then used those to mask his more obvious failures, but here he jumped right out into a very public sphere and into a platform that is used by many tens of millions of people, assuming that his dictums are some kind of fundamental law that would make people jump to satisfy his every whim, and like a spoiled toddler who has suddenly discovered the limit of his behavior by being put into the corner, he is now having a meltdown of epic proportions. It’s not as if Musk is suddenly going to become destitute, and cutting the valuation of Tesla in half is only about a quarter of the way to pushing it down to where it could credibly be based upon some reality, but Twitter as a platform and Musk as a genius-billionaire have lost that lovin’ feeling for all but his most diehard sycophants and adulators. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/118 "2022-11-18T22:52:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > [https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592619267803185152?s=20&t=YUu85EnlDQM9n1u3d5h59A](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1592619267803185152?s=20&t=YUu85EnlDQM9n1u3d5h59A) > > It’s nice to see the transparency, even if it does give ammo to his haters. As @Kimstu noted, that was a joke. “Ligma & Johnson” = “lick my johnson”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/119 "2022-11-18T22:52:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Be careful not to stay in a bubble. I keep reading how Twitter is shedding users like crazy, but according to Musk Twitter is gaining users at a rapid clip. Ooo… an increase of 1.2% from the low in July. Yay. Note the 240-some-million of the graph cut off to make it seem like a huge increase. And, if those numbers are to be believed, how many are to watch the shit show go down? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2022, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040/120 "2022-11-18T22:56:47Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And, if those numbers are to be believed, how many are to watch the shit show go down? Or to post spam, porn, etc. now that the caretakers have left the zoo? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-elon-musk-ultimatum-do-extremely-hardcore-work-or-get-out/975040.md?page=7)