# Is it legal to fire employees for not getting a flu shot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191 "2012-11-26T19:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/41 "2012-11-27T01:29:14Z")
> [@fumster](#): > > On the other hand, I’m glad the anti-vax nuts were fired. I wonder if there’s an exception for people for whom flu shots are NOT indicated, such as those allergic to the vaccine. ---
**Author:** ![Antigen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/848f3c/32.png) [@Antigen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antigen)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/42 "2012-11-27T01:30:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I wonder if there’s an exception for people for whom flu shots are NOT indicated, such as those allergic to the vaccine. Yes, there is. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/43 "2012-11-27T01:34:37Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I mean, healthy people with good nutrition don’t generally die of the flu. I hear people feel like they want to die, but that’s different. In the great flu pandemic of 1918 the “young and healthy” certainly did die of the flu in vast number. That time around, it’s believed the particular strain of flu virus induced an over-reaction of the immune system - those with the strongest immune systems were the most likely to suffer that side effect and die from it. Fortunately, most flu strains don’t induce something like a [cytokine storm](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm#Role_in_pandemic_deaths) but it’s a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/44 "2012-11-27T01:39:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, I’m not going to get any extra vaccinations after I almost died from my MMR shot. I was clinically dead for 45 minutes. I even got to opt out of later vaccinations for public school because they tested my immunity. > > I get vaccinations I need, and no more. And if I never catch the flu, despite being exposed to it, I don’t need it. Why don’t they let me opt out the way I opted out of my MMR, by testing my immunity, if that’s really what they are concerned about? These articles never seem to mention if there are exceptions for those whom vaccination is contra-indicated. According to **Antigen** this policy did carry such an exemption. If that’s the case then you, with a documented medical bad reaction to vaccinations, would probably be allowed an exemption. The trick is then what they accept as acceptable documentation. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/45 "2012-11-27T01:39:06Z")
In fact wasn’t that one of the characteristics of H1N1, that it was not as common in the traditional demographics as it was in the 20-45 year old and relatively healthy population? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/46 "2012-11-27T01:39:48Z")
In health care, you can get fired for not washing your hands often enough, or not doing it properly. So it’s hardly surprising you could lose your job for failing to comply with other standard accepted anti-infection precautions. There is an exception for folks with a legitimate vaccine allergy. But those folks are not very common at all. This is how it should be when one assumes professional, compensated responsibility for the health of others. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/47 "2012-11-27T01:41:09Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Agreed. I don’t get a flu shot because I’ve never ever had the flu. You say I’m knocking on wood. Maybe, but when I get it once, I promise the very next year I’ll get a shot. Why get a shot to avoid something that a) won’t kill me and b) I’ve never had. > > Health care workers are a different kettle of fish though, and I’m not as sure about them. The CDC estimates that approximately 36k people die every year from the flu (obviously this number varies from year to year). It’s a pretty small number when you take into account the size of the country and the number of people in it…but, it’s over double the number of folks who die from, say, gunshot wounds in the US each year, so it’s all in how you look at it. Or, to put it another way, it’s a bit less than the number of people who die each year in the US in car accidents. However, world wide flu deaths are a hell of a lot more…between half a million and a million, depending on how you classify it, and what strain is active. So, it’s no joke or something to be handwaved off…and that doesn’t even count the number of folks who get sick from it each year, costing gods know how much money. I have no idea if it’s legal or not, but frankly, people should take getting a flu shot a hell of a lot more seriously IMHO…and if you work in a field where you are in contact with the public, it ought to be a requirement for employment. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/48 "2012-11-27T04:06:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > We’re not talking about government employees, so it’s not a freedom of religion issue. Isn’t religion a protected class in employment? ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/49 "2012-11-27T04:18:48Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Isn’t religion a protected class in employment? Non-discrimination laws applicable to private employers do not flow from the First Amendment. This power so to legislate comes from the Commerce Clause and Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. The difference: the Civil Rights Act could be repealed, and non-discrimination laws applicable to private employers eliminated, without offending the Constitution. Laws burdening free exercise (but not general laws of neutral applicability) would not pass Constitutional muster. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/50 "2012-11-27T14:21:24Z")
It is amazing how many people think that I should get a flu shot, and furthermore, that they have any say in my health or what I do. I can only make this much compromise. When the government insists that everyone get a flu shot, just like vaccinations, I will go peacefully without any argument. Until then I see absolutely no reason to do so. Thanks anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/51 "2012-11-27T14:31:10Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Isn’t religion a protected class in employment? > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Non-discrimination laws applicable to private employers do not flow from the First Amendment. This power so to legislate comes from the Commerce Clause and Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. > > The difference: the Civil Rights Act could be repealed, and non-discrimination laws applicable to private employers eliminated, without offending the Constitution. Laws burdening free exercise (but not general laws of neutral applicability) would not pass Constitutional muster. To elaborate, I was being nitpicky. “Freedom of religion” implies a limitation on the government’s right to legislate in the area, based on the First Amendment. The First Amendment applies only to the federal government, state governments, and their subdivisions; it does not apply to private employers at all. In this case, we are talking about an employer’s policy of requiring flu shots for workers, rather than a law. If the shots were required by law, _then_ this might be a “freedom of religion” issue, although as a neutral law of general applicability it would be very difficult to argue that anyone’s religious freedom was being limited by it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/52 "2012-11-27T14:35:05Z")
If it matters, I support your right to avoid a vaccination so long as you’re not in a profession like health care where not getting one poses risks to others, and your decision is a fully informed one. As noted, flu shots only protect against a limited number of flu strains and aren’t required for most people. You’re an adult and allowed to make these sorts of decisions for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/53 "2012-11-27T14:42:07Z")
In my state (a so-called ‘right to work’ state, which is a misnomer,) an employer can fire any employee for any reason. My employer does require a flu vaccine but if you don’t take the vaccine you are not let go, you just have to wear a face mask all flu season. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/54 "2012-11-27T15:09:05Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It is amazing how many people think that I should get a flu shot, and furthermore, that they have any say in my health or what I do. > > I can only make this much compromise. When the government insists that everyone get a flu shot, just like vaccinations, I will go peacefully without any argument. Until then I see absolutely no reason to do so. > > Thanks anyway. I don’t want to have a say in your health, and I don’t really want the government to have a say in your health either at this point. That said, as a scientist, I think your stance is poorly reasoned and may come back to bite you some day. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/55 "2012-11-27T15:51:37Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It is amazing how many people think that I should get a flu shot, and furthermore, that they have any say in my health or what I do. > > I can only make this much compromise. When the government insists that everyone get a flu shot, just like vaccinations, I will go peacefully without any argument. Until then I see absolutely no reason to do so. > > Thanks anyway. Unless you live in a bubble and never have any contact with anyone, what you do wrt immunization has consequences. People who don’t get their shots then insist on coming into work (or going out to the store or out in public without a mask) when they are sick because it’s their right are incredibly irresponsible. Maybe you don’t do that, and simply stay home at the first sign of getting sick (having already inadvertently infected others before you knew you had the flu or whatever), in which case it’s mostly on you…your choice. Anyway, you’ll do what you’ll do, despite all of this, but as L. G. says, it’s poorly reasoned and thought out, especially since in many places a flu shot takes like 5 minutes to get and costs either nothing or very little (I got mine at the local CVS and it cost me nothing and I was in and out…took me longer to park than get the shot). ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/56 "2012-11-27T17:26:52Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It is amazing how many people think that I should get a flu shot You should get a flu shot. > [@](#): > > When the government insists that everyone get a flu shot, just like vaccinations, I will go peacefully without any argument. Until then I see absolutely no **reason** to do so. The _reasons_ you should get a flu shot have already been explained to you. The biggest one (IMO) is that of civic responsibility - there are, on average, 36,000 people who die each year in the US. Many of these are people who don’t have a good immune response to the vaccine, so they depend on others around them to be immunized - many of these 36,000 would not die if the people around them got immunized. So the people who don’t get immunized are killing thousands of people every year, for no good reason other than ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/57 "2012-11-27T18:19:47Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I was clinically dead for 45 minutes. 45 minutes. Uh-huh. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinically_dead) > [@](#): > > The brain, however, appears to accumulate ischemic injury faster than any other organ. Without special treatment after circulation is restarted, full recovery of the brain after more than 3 minutes of clinical death at normal body temperature is rare (there’s more in the article about how temps of -20 and below can sometimes increase the recovery time some. Ice water isn’t below -20 degrees) So…really? 45 minutes? Did you have an out of body experience like our other poster who “died”? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/58 "2012-11-27T18:44:45Z")
He already stated his body was put on ice for awhile. The claim is exceptional, but not impossible. I will also allow for some distortion of details given the poster would not have direct memories of the event and family members likely were not conversant with absolutely every medial detail. I do recall when Jimmy Tonetelevich (spelling of last name may be off) was pulled out of Lake Michigan clinically dead after about 2.5 hours under the water in winter - the kid eventually made a full recovery. The younger the human the more likely they are to survive such an event. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/59 "2012-11-27T20:10:26Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > My employer does require a flu vaccine but if you don’t take the vaccine you are not let go, you just have to wear a face mask all flu season. Same here, and not just in areas where patients might be. Those who are exempted from or who decline the shot must wear a mask at all times when they are at work. I know compliance will be an issue, but we have an extender to put on our work badges to show we were vaccinated, which makes anyone without such an identifer easy to spot as someone who should be masked. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/60 "2012-11-27T22:25:02Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I can only make this much compromise. When the government insists that everyone get a flu shot, just like vaccinations, I will go peacefully without any argument. Until then I see absolutely no reason to do so. Last I checked - I may be wrong on this - the government only makes **kids** get vaccinations (barring exemptions) to attend school. That’s it. The one thing I can think of that is government-enforced is quarantine and/or forced medication compliance for patients with active tuberculosis who are refusing to comply/slacking on compliance with meds. But that’s because we don’t vaccinate against TB in the US and so don’t have that herd immunity. The CDC does recommend that **everyone** who is physically able to get the flu vaccine please do so. Speaking of lacking herd immunity, the pertussis (whooping cough) vaccine doesn’t seem to last as long as we’d hoped, so it’d be awfully nice if adults would get a Tdap (tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis) booster to potentially help save infants from a painful illness or even death. Adults don’t get the characteristic “whoop” in that cough, from what I’ve read, so they can pass it along without knowing. Plus a tetanus vaccination booster is directly protective for you! 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191.md?page=4)