# Is it legal to fire employees for not getting a flu shot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191 "2012-11-26T19:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/61 "2012-11-28T01:02:18Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I get the flu, I am not getting it. I believe that once you actually get the flu, it’s too late. Look, get the shot or not, but don’t kid yourself – you are taking a risk. It’s your choice to do so, but it’s not one I’d reccomend. A lot of people seem to think it’s like a bad cold. What’s the saying, “a bad cold makes you feel like you’re dying; the flu makes you wish you were dead?” **BigT** ’s claim – it’s possible his family is exaggerating the exact details. What happened to him though is so rare that it doesn’t do away with the need for such a law. The flu isn’t something to fuck around with. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/62 "2012-11-28T01:10:38Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this subject on and off for a couple hours now, and I keep coming back to the general idea that industry-specific health requirements, especially as they relate to the safety of others, are probably a pretty good thing. Want to be a cop? Be prepared to submit to a psychological exam now and then. Want to be an airline pilot? Be prepared to have an EKG. Want to work around sick people? Be prepared to have a wide range of vaccinations. Then they should inoculate for every known disease and maybe a couple that aren’t known. The question that should be asked is: does this stop the transmission of flu? The followup question is pretty straight forward. Can you transmit the flu prior to symptoms? Additional question, can you compel someone to get a shot when they have had it in the past and it causes problems? I’ve had 2 flu shots in 35 years of adult life and both times it knocked me on my ass. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/63 "2012-11-28T02:03:14Z")
I had the flu about 4 months ago and it was 12 days of misery. I laid in bed until my hip bones hurt, coughed until my ribs and abdomen hurt, and also coughed so much that my stomach contents would become ‘foamy’, which caused nausea and vomiting, which triggered urinary incontinence, too. I read the label on the current flu ax this season and the three listed were all named after places close to me: Texas, Wisconsin and Alberta (I think). Having an off season illness and the fluvacs regionally close make me worry that it could be a bad flu season this year. I’ve already had patients hospitalized with flu this year as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/64 "2012-11-28T02:10:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Can you transmit the flu prior to symptoms? Yes indeed, a [day or so prior](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626479/). So you could be feeling just fine and shedding the influenza virus everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/65 "2012-11-28T02:34:51Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I do recall when Jimmy Tonetelevich (spelling of last name may be off) was pulled out of Lake Michigan clinically dead after about 2.5 hours under the water in winter - the kid eventually made a full recovery. The younger the human the more likely they are to survive such an event. More like 20 [minutes](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/tribnation/chi-behind-the-chicago-tribunes-updates-on-sto-001,0,7653928.photo) underwater. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/66 "2012-11-28T02:42:37Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Yes indeed, a [day or so prior](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1626479/). So you could be feeling just fine and shedding the influenza virus everywhere. where does it say that in the article. I picked out .5 days as a postulation. If the hospital is worried about this shouldn’t all the employees wear masks? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/67 "2012-11-28T02:45:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > More like 20 [minutes](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/tribnation/chi-behind-the-chicago-tribunes-updates-on-sto-001,0,7653928.photo) underwater. 'Tis possible I misremembered the details, as it was something like 25+ years ago - which is just an illustration of how the details of such stories can be distorted with time and distance. Regardless, 20 minutes under ice-cold water is a pretty long time without fresh oxygen. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/68 "2012-11-28T02:46:02Z")
I plan to get my whopping cough shot in Feb when I have my annual physical in Feb. We’ve already had several outbreaks in high schools in my state. One is only 20 miles away. My mom can’t recall if I had that shot as an infant. But they recommend a booster anyhow. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/69 "2012-11-28T03:01:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > where does it say that in the article. I picked out .5 days as a postulation. > > If the hospital is worried about this shouldn’t all the employees wear masks? [Up to one day](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm) here. I know I’ve seen it cited elsewhere too. CDC says [vaccinate everyone ages 6 months and older](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/whoshouldvax.htm) (barring [certain limited groups](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/shouldnot.htm)), [no excuses](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/pdf/freeresources/updated/no-excuses-flu-vaccine.pdf). I suppose they could try to order every citizen to go around with a face mask on to prevent TB transmission since we don’t even vaccinate for that, but something tells me that isn’t a cost effective idea. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/70 "2012-11-28T03:17:43Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > [Up to one day](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm) here. I know I’ve seen it cited elsewhere too. > > CDC says [vaccinate everyone ages 6 months and older](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/whoshouldvax.htm) (barring [certain limited groups](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/shouldnot.htm)), [no excuses](http://www.cdc.gov/flu/pdf/freeresources/updated/no-excuses-flu-vaccine.pdf). > > I suppose they could try to order every citizen to go around with a face mask on to prevent TB transmission since we don’t even vaccinate for that, but something tells me that isn’t a cost effective idea. We’re not talking about every person, we’re specifically talking about health care employees. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/71 "2012-11-28T21:50:05Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > It is amazing how many people think that I should get a flu shot, and furthermore, that they have any say in my health or what I do. > > I can only make this much compromise. When the government insists that everyone get a flu shot, just like vaccinations, I will go peacefully without any argument. Until then I see absolutely no reason to do so. > > Thanks anyway. As long as you’re not my nurse, doctor, etc., I don’t think I should have a say in whether you get the flu shot, Mika. No, scratch that; if my baby were still less than six months old, and it were flu season, then I wouldn’t let a person I knew to be unvaccinated around her and would require any prospective babysitter to have gotten the shot.) When I write that you should get the flu shot, I mean it mostly as I would mean you should buckle up while riding in a car. (Except that not getting the shot risks the health of others in a way that not wearing one’s seat belt does not.) If there were a strain of the flu around that was lethal to, say, 25% of the persons who contract it, and a vaccine were available for it, I’d argue that as a public health issue everyone should be required to get it. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/72 "2012-11-28T23:51:05Z")
[Typhoid Mary](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1816/who-was-typhoid-mary) argued that she was perfectly healthy, and saw no reason to give up cooking as a profession. She also didn’t want to even take minimum precautions to avoid spreading typhoid, like washing her hands. I think that the state in general, and employers in particular, can and should limit the ability of infectious people to contact others. I don’t believe that individuals have the right to spread disease when it’s easily preventable. ---
**Author:** ![Danger-Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Danger-Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger-Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/73 "2013-01-04T03:08:12Z")
Since there’s many different strands of the flu, and flu strands are always mutating as well, there’s a small chance that the vaccine for the year will work in the first place, and actually, after a simple Google search, increases your chances of getting the flu by many accounts. Pharmaceutical companies are pushing this, and this is the very definition of medical tyranny when you are forced to put something in your body that you don’t want. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/74 "2013-01-04T05:01:41Z")
> [@Danger-Mouse](#): > > Since there’s many different strands of the flu, and flu strands are always mutating as well, there’s a small chance that the vaccine for the year will work in the first place, and actually, after a simple Google search, increases your chances of getting the flu by many accounts. > Pharmaceutical companies are pushing this, and this is the very definition of medical tyranny when you are forced to put something in your body that you don’t want. Would any of those accounts be from anyone who is an actual, capable, non-loon scientist? ---
**Author:** ![Sevencl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@Sevencl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevencl)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/75 "2013-01-04T05:14:36Z")
I should hope it’s legal. If I were an employer (or an employee) I wouldn’t want to work in an environment where every effort isn’t taken to keep me safe from catching things from other people. Plus, an elderly employee catching flu from someone and dying from complications is a lawsuit waiting to happen, so employers should have the right to do their best to cover their ass.\* \*EDIT: I know the flu shot isn’t magical 100% protection, but it’s better than nothing. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/76 "2013-01-04T14:02:52Z")
Don’t think this has made the boards yet, > [@](#): > > An Indiana hospital has fired eight employees, including at least three veteran nurses, after they refused mandatory flu shots … > > … Ethel Hoover wore all black on her last day of work as a nurse in the critical care unit at Indiana University Health Goshen Hospital. She said she was in “mourning” because she would have been at the hospital 22 years in February, and she’s only called out of work four or five times in her whole career , she said. > > “This is my body. I have a right to refuse the flu vaccine,” {Ethel} Hoover, 61, told [ABCNews.com](http://ABCNews.com). “For 21 years, I have religiously not taken the flu vaccine, and now you’re telling me that I believe in it.” … > > … When Hoover first heard about the mandate, she said she didn’t realize officials would take it so seriously. She said she filed two medical exemptions, a religious exemption and two appeals, but they were all denied. The Dec. 15 flu shot deadline came and went. Hoover’s last day of employment was Dec. 21. … > > … The hospital said in a statement that it implemented the mandate to promote patient safety based on recommendations from the American Medical Association, the American Nurses Association, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. It announced the mandate in September. Of the hospital’s 26,000 employees statewide, 95 percent complied. That means 1,300 employees did not comply, but only eight were fired. … > > … But still, Hoover’s lawyer, Alan Phillips, says his client had the right to refuse her flu shot under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits religious discrimination of employees. Religion is legally broad under the First Amendment, so it could include any strongly held belief, he said, adding that the belief flu shots are bad should suffice. > > “If your personal beliefs are religious in nature, then they are a protected belief,” Phillips said. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/indiana-hospital-fires-nurses-refusing-flu-shot/story?id=18116967#.UObfUazbKZR)[/RIGHT] Religiously not taking the flu vaccine because I’ve only called out of work four or five times in 22 years and “don’t believe in flu shots” . . . cool church! Now get the fuck out of the CCU! CMC ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/77 "2013-01-04T14:10:22Z")
Yes, I agree that firing someone for not getting a flu shot is appropriate. You can have a religious exemption to it all you want, you don’t have a right to work in the healthcare field. If your religion prevents you from getting vaccines, then don’t work in fields where you might be a disease vector. ---
**Author:** ![theR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@theR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/theR)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/78 "2013-01-04T14:33:44Z")
> [@Danger-Mouse](#): > > Since there’s many different strands of the flu, and flu strands are always mutating as well, there’s a small chance that the vaccine for the year will work in the first place, and actually, after a simple Google search, increases your chances of getting the flu by many accounts. > Pharmaceutical companies are pushing this, and this is the very definition of medical tyranny when you are forced to put something in your body that you don’t want. By the time the vaccine is available to the public, the CDC already has a good idea how well it will match the predominant strains for the season. This year, for example, they think they got it right. > [@](#): > > Of the flu strains that are spreading this year, about 80 percent are the influenza A type, and almost all of those are the H3N2 strain, Bresee said. That matches well with this year’s flu vaccine, which includes the H3N2 strain. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/early-flu-season-could-be-severe-experts-warn/2012/12/29/9ae51816-5045-11e2-839d-d54cc6e49b63\_print.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/early-flu-season-could-be-severe-experts-warn/2012/12/29/9ae51816-5045-11e2-839d-d54cc6e49b63_print.html) The main problem is that they have to pick the strains used to develop vaccines at the end of the previous flu season. Nevertheless, you saying “small chance” seems incorrect to me. Even in a year they get it wrong like 2008, the vaccine still protects against [40 percent of the circulating flu strains, while good years the vaccine works against 70-90 percent of flu strains](http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/health/2008-02-15-4148715167_x.htm). I don’t think there is any legitimate explanation for how the vaccine could increase chances of getting the flu unless you’re referring to reasons not directly related to the vaccine, like people changing their behavior to be less cautious during flu season because they’ve been vaccinated. The vaccine itself can’t give you the flu. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/79 "2013-01-04T14:39:29Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Why get a shot to avoid something that a) \*\*won’t kill me \*\*and b) I’ve never had. Don’t have a dog in this fight, but I’d like to note that the Spanish flu \*was \*the most deadly pandemic we’ve had yet. It killed more people than the Black Plague. In fact, it killed more people than \*any \*other natural disaster in human history. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/80 "2013-01-04T14:44:36Z")
> [@Danger-Mouse](#): > > Since there’s many different strands of the flu, and flu strands are always mutating as well, there’s a small chance that the vaccine for the year will work in the first place, and actually, after a simple Google search, increases your chances of getting the flu by many accounts. > Pharmaceutical companies are pushing this, and this is the very definition of medical tyranny when you are forced to put something in your body that you don’t want. Simply not true. Getting the flu vaccine does not increase our ink of getting the flu. You might feel achy or a bit unwell after, as a result of the immune response, but that’s not a case of the flu. Generally, the predictions about which flu strain to create the vaccine against are very good, hardly the small chance you are suggesting. Any healthcare claim that has a big pharma conspiracy theory underpinning it should be met with skepticism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191.md?page=5)