# Is it legal to fire employees for not getting a flu shot? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191 "2012-11-26T19:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/121 "2013-01-09T23:52:56Z")
Hospitals require lots of vaccines to work there- hell, our students shadowing at a hospital have to get vaccines. Our college requires vaccines to enroll (or proof of past vaccination or antibody titre). Why is the flu vaccine getting such news? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/122 "2013-01-10T00:01:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > TB testing? Don’t you have BCGs or whatever they’re called now here? [It’s not common in the US](http://www.cdc.gov/tb/publications/factsheets/prevention/bcg.htm) apparently because the negatives outweigh the positives (in the US. The analysis would be different in areas where TB is more prevalent) ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/123 "2013-01-10T00:07:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > TB testing? Don’t you have BCGs or whatever they’re called now here? BCG does not work very well, and is not recommended for most patients in the US. It’s mostly useful in reducing the risk of TB meningitis, which is already extremely uncommon in the US. Once you’ve had the BCG TB vaccine, you will always test positive for TB on standard skin testing, too. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/124 "2013-01-10T00:10:05Z")
**Kearsen** , hand washing isn’t 100% effective at eliminating the transmission of disease, either. And it’s a real drag, it takes forever, and it makes my knuckles hurt when I wash them all day. Sometimes they even bleed a little. I don’t \*think \*I have hepatitis, but I decided it’s too much of a bother to get the test, and it’s not really the hospital’s business, anyway. And gloves don’t 100% eliminate disease transmission, either. So, it’s okay with you if I don’t wash my hands or put on gloves before I change your mother’s IV, right? Is that seriously what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Danger-Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Danger-Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger-Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/125 "2013-01-19T14:28:11Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Would any of those accounts be from anyone who is an actual, capable, non-loon scientist? How’s Dr. Julie Derberding, the former director of the CDC, and Merck’s own head of the vaccine division? “Over 200 viruses cause influenza and influenza-like illness which produce the same symptoms (fever, headache, aches and pains, cough and runny noses). Without laboratory tests, doctors cannot tell the two illnesses apart. Both last for days and rarely lead to death or serious illness. At best, vaccines might be effective against only influenza A and B, which represent about 10% of all circulating viruses. Each year, the World Health Organization recommends which viral strains should be included in vaccinations for the forthcoming season.” > **[New Study – Flu Vaccine Doesn’t Work](https://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/new-study-flu-vaccine-doesnt-work/)** > > A new study confirms yet again what many prior studies have shown \[see list at end\], that ‘flu vaccination is largely ineffective \[despite what Government “health” officials want … ---
**Author:** ![Danger-Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Danger-Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger-Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/126 "2013-01-19T14:32:38Z")
Also I might note, that vaccines are the pillar of income for the pharmaceutical companies, and we know they have lobbyist, many of them, and powerful. To insinuate that because a scientist works for a pharmaceutical company makes he or she far more credible then say an independent scientist or university, is just backwards. One scientists job depends on income that the shots and drugs gather, another doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/127 "2013-01-19T15:20:55Z")
> [@Danger-Mouse](#): > > Also I might note, that vaccines are the pillar of income for the pharmaceutical companies… Do you have a source for this claim? Every paper that I can find puts profits from vaccines under 3% of the revenue a pharmaceutical company makes. They practically give them away, literally. ---
**Author:** ![Danger-Mouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8491ac/32.png) [@Danger-Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danger-Mouse)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/128 "2013-01-19T17:34:14Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Do you have a source for this claim? Every paper that I can find puts profits from vaccines under 3% of the revenue a pharmaceutical company makes. They practically give them away, literally. This is an outstanding point. But, because your not paying out of your pocket, doesn’t mean that your not paying for your or my vaccine. > **[Drugmakers, Doctors Rake in Billions Battling H1N1 Flu](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/big-business-swine-flu/Story?id=8820642&page=1)** > > Drug companies have sold $1.5 billion worth of swine flu shots, in addition to the billion of doses for seasonal flu they booked earlier this year. These inoculations are part of a much wider and rapidly growing $20 billion global vaccine market. > **[Opponents: Calif. vaccine bill will give taxpayer boost to drug companies](https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/23300/opponents-calif-vaccine-bill-will-give-taxpayer-boost-to-drug-companies)** > > California Gov. Jerry Brown should veto a bill allowing 12-year-olds to consent to STD vaccinations or treatment without their parents’ knowledge, bill opponents say. They warn that the bill violates parents’ rights and could give pharmaceutical... [http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2009/11/30/vaccine\_revolution.ART\_ART\_11-30-09\_A10\_7NFQQE7.html](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2009/11/30/vaccine_revolution.ART_ART_11-30-09_A10_7NFQQE7.html) I don’t personally believe you need most of them, as a 42 year old man I’ve watched doctors do a 180 on pregnant women, saying they need them, I’ve been inundated by Walgreens and CVS constant barrage of radio, and television spots for them, as well as seeing them every time I enter or even pass by one of their stores. Governments don’t mind footing the bill as long as your paying. I’m not a VAX nut, I just have wrapped my head around how politicians are swerved one way or another by big Pharma. I do find it interesting how you chose the least important part of my sentence to latch onto, as if disproving that part would make what the former CDC director said less damning. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/129 "2013-01-19T18:39:00Z")
> [@Danger-Mouse](#): > > This is an outstanding point. But, because your not paying out of your pocket, doesn’t mean that your not paying for your or my vaccine. No, no, I get that, trust me I do. I’m a home health nurse. I give the vaccines that my company pays for. We pay about $30 per dose\*, and get, for Chicago residents, $25.48 from Medicare for the administration of each dose given. If the patient has Part B, we get 90% of our billed fee for the vaccine, which is…let’s see, nothin’ into nothin’, carry the nothin’ – still nothin’. Our patients pay nothing out of pocket; we eat the difference out of a combination of altruism and not liking losing patients to death or the hospital. \*this is high for the industry, because we’re small, and we have to order at near retail pricing and logistically, we need single dose prefilled syringes. Larger practices and flu clinics can order it for around [$8-9 a dose this year](http://www.app.com/article/20130117/NJNEWS/301170022/A-shot-dark-Some-say-flu-vaccine-hard-find), using multi-dose vials. But even $30 per dose for a once a year medication is nothing. I mean…NOTHING. My average patient is on well over $1000 of medications per _month_. (I’ve been at this a little over a year, and I just had my first patient \*ever \*who is on no maintenance medications at all.) It’s a drop in the “Big Pharma” bucket. 1.5% of revenue (although that is growing as more effective vaccine research is being done and more vaccines for more illnesses are being created.) It’s less than noise on their ledgers. It costs them very nearly that much to mail out the little vials in refrigerated trucks, I’d expect. It costs them so much that 86% of the pharmaceutical companies that made vaccines for the US market 35 years ago have gotten out of vaccine production entirely. [Vaccination Ethics and Policy](http://www.vaccineethics.org/issue_briefs/industry.php) \* I’m \*not making any money on it. I get paid the same amount for a visit whether I give the shot or not. \*Medicare’s \*not making money on it (they may be saving money by preventing people from needing to be hospitalized with the flu, though. Those bastards.) My employer is actually \*losing \*money on it. “Big Pharma” isn’t making anything like most of their money on it, even if you add all the vaccines together. > [@](#): > > I do find it interesting how you chose the least important part of my sentence to latch onto, as if disproving that part would make what the former CDC director said less damning. Well, that’s because I agree with her. I just don’t find it particularly damning. I see nothing extraordinary in the claim that requires addressing, and you provided a citation for it already. Thank you. The only people who think the claim is that a vaccine prevents all incidents of the illness or similar illnesses are either undereducated about how vaccines work, or willfully ignorant anti-vaxxers. People who understand vaccination know that’s ridiculous. I don’t encourage vaccination because it will eliminate Mrs. Jones’ risk of getting sick all winter; I encourage it because it will reduce her risk of getting a few of the most common strains of the flu, and it will reduce her risk of giving those flu to Mrs. Smith, her neighbor who’s allergic to eggs, and to Ashleigh, her cute little newborn granddaughter and Mr. White, her pastor who is undergoing chemo for his advanced pancreatic cancer. (Names changed. Relationships and contraindications true.) I find it interesting that we get it coming or going. If we don’t prevent illness, we get accused of being in the pocket of Big Pharma by creating a need for drugs for long term health conditions. If we do prevent illness, we get accused of being in the pocket of Big Pharma for shilling vaccines. Seriously…all I want is to help people be healthy. (People who largely won’t eat right or exercise or stop smoking.) I promise, I’m not trying to pollute your precious bodily fluids, I’m trying to reduce the chances you’re going to have to bury your grandma this winter. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/130 "2013-01-19T21:14:19Z")
> [@Danger-Mouse](#): > > How’s Dr. Julie Derberding, the former director of the CDC, and Merck’s own head of the vaccine division? > > “Over 200 viruses cause influenza and influenza-like illness which produce the same symptoms (fever, headache, aches and pains, cough and runny noses). Without laboratory tests, doctors cannot tell the two illnesses apart. Both last for days and rarely lead to death or serious illness. At best, vaccines might be effective against only influenza A and B, which represent about 10% of all circulating viruses. Each year, the World Health Organization recommends which viral strains should be included in vaccinations for the forthcoming season.” > > [New Study – Flu Vaccine Doesn’t Work | \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_Child Health Safety\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_](http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/new-study-flu-vaccine-doesnt-work/) First, the name is Gerberding, not Derbending. Second your link isn’t quoting her - it’s quoting a Cochrane Collaboration study (this study [http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub4/abstract;jsessionid=A6430968EE99C9E40E2A752988473694.d02t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD001269.pub4/abstract;jsessionid=A6430968EE99C9E40E2A752988473694.d02t03?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false)) ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191/131 "2013-01-20T05:28:00Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You should get a flu shot. > > The _reasons_ you should get a flu shot have already been explained to you. The biggest one (IMO) is that of civic responsibility - there are, on average, 36,000 people who die each year in the US. Many of these are people who don’t have a good immune response to the vaccine, so they depend on others around them to be immunized - many of these 36,000 would not die if the people around them got immunized. > > So the people who don’t get immunized are killing thousands of people every year, for no good reason other than ignorance. Also, drivers kill 40,000 every year. So if you drive, you’re a mass-murderer too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-fire-employees-for-not-getting-a-flu-shot/642191.md?page=6)