# Is it legal to hold your staff personally accountable for mistakes they make on the job? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 23, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107 "2010-01-23T13:40:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/21 "2010-01-23T19:05:39Z")
> [@Yarster](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this logic Snnipe 70E. I was hired away from a previous job for $20,000 more than I was making in April 2008, with an offer letter promising the specified salary. In May 2009, despite a great year of winning proposals, I was forced to take a $30,000 pay cut or else I would be terminated. Needless to say, I took it, immediately started looking for new work, and found a new position about four months later making back most of that money. I’m in California, which is an ‘at will’ state, and while I think my old company treated me completely unfairly on the vague basis of ‘economic downturn’ which has not affected my industry in the slightest, I have no doubt it was legal. > > My understanding is that any job in California can jerk around their employees for any reason they feel like short of something blatantly discriminatory, because of the ‘at will’ status. Though off topic, I’ve always wondered if a California company could legally entice an employee at a competitor to join them, then legally retract or restructure the job offer immediately after they joined. Let’s assume for the moment this was done because of a reasonable circumstance - company lost big contract and was downsizing, etc. At will is not a blank check. If an employeer makes an offer to entice an employee to leave one company and the restructure the offer after you have given notice to your present company then the employee would have leagal recourse, and they would be hard pressed to “leagally change the offer”. It would be labor lawyer time. A lot fo people including employeers do believe at will mean the employeer "_can jerk around their employees for any reason they feel like short of something blatantly discriminatory, because of the ‘at will’ status._ " My son who is an assastant store manager has to go through propper steps before terminating an bad employee, if all the companies written procedures are not followed and the employee gets a lawyer the employee can get some compensation. The problem is when employeers tell the employee I am going to screw you most people say well what can I do, we are at will. In fact my son claims that at will employment works to the employees advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/22 "2010-01-23T19:08:48Z")
> [@racer72](#): > > Based on the many posts I have read on a U.S. based legal forum I frequent, it is never legal to deduct money from an employees paycheck without the employee’s permission. As **IAmNotSpartacus** pointed out, this isn’t true in the U.S. As an employer, I’ve been forced by the government to deduct money from employee paychecks to cover child support and legal settlements. This was absolutely done without the employee’s permission. > [@faithfool](#): > > In the waitressing world, they consider someone skipping out on the check to be the waitress’ fault and, typically, expect her to cover for it. On our honeymoon, my wife and I went to Munich, where we went to a wonderful restaurant. When we finished, I went to the bathroom while she stayed at the table, and then she went to the bathroom while I stayed at the table. We walked back to the hotel and had this conversation: ME: That was a great meal! What did it cost? HER: I don’t know. You paid the bill. ME: No I didn’t. I thought you paid it while I was in the bathroom. HER: Uh-oh. I thought _you_ paid it while _I_ was in the bathroom. I walked back to the restaurant, found the waitress, and gave her the money (with an extra-large tip). She was almost in tears. She said if I hadn’t come back, the boss was taking the price of that meal out of her paycheck, and it was as much as she makes in a whole shift. So that’s one anecdotal 25-year-old piece of hearsay indicating that it’s legal in Germany for employers to deduct money from employees. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/23 "2010-01-23T19:13:16Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:22, topic:526107”] So that’s one anecdotal 25-year-old piece of hearsay indicating that it’s legal in Germany for employers to deduct money from employees. [/QUOTE] It would’ve been a better ending had you said it was legal for the restaurant to force you & your wife to wash dishes and scrub toilets as payback for skipping the check. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/24 "2010-01-23T19:18:46Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > It would’ve been a better ending had you said it was legal for the restaurant to force you & your wife to wash dishes and scrub toilets as payback for skipping the check. 🙂 This should probably have its own thread but has that ever happened? It is a staple of TV comedy but does it have any basis on reality? ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/25 "2010-01-23T19:43:05Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > In the waitressing world, they consider someone skipping out on the check to be the waitress’ fault and, typically, expect her to cover for it. The restaurant I worked in for a few years would threaten this. But the _one_ time it actually happened to me, the manager somewhat begrudgingly ended up voiding the check and eating the loss of about $65. > [@Superhal](#): > > Personally, I think if you did hold employees legally accountable for their mistakes, you aren’t likely to have employees for very long. This statement is based on the assumption that people have a need for self-respect which supersedes their need for a paycheck. That assumption is typically false. ---
**Author:** ![joyfool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@joyfool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joyfool)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/26 "2010-01-23T19:51:57Z")
Fortunately I never had to pay for a ditched check, but I did know waitress friends who (supposedly) had to. Maybe it was all just a rumor to keep us on our toes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/27 "2010-01-23T20:07:40Z")
As has been noted, the short answer in California is no. You cannot hold an employee responsible for ordinary negligence. Intentional misdeeds are another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/28 "2010-01-23T20:23:32Z")
I’ve dealt with this in H/R and accounting a lot. State laws vary but in Illinois it was pretty straight. Employers cannot deduct for shortages. In fact, they can’t even deduct for out right theft. For example, I worked as an asst controller in a hotel. Every front desk clerk had their own bank of $200.00. One guy quit on Saturday and the front desk supervisor didn’t check him out. When I went to check his bank, sure enough, the money was gone. You can’t withhold, the person’s last check to make up this shortage, you can’t do anything to him in terms of withholding money. What you CAN do is call the cops. The point is, you must call the cops, report the theft and then SUE the person in civil court to get back your money. Now that’s officially the answer. You can do “unoffical” things like after the cops pick him up, you can agree not to press charges. In that particular case it was hard as the clerk didn’t live in Chicago, so the Chicago Police refused to do anything other take the report. Chicago Police won’t go outside of their jurisdiction and for such a small amount won’t follow it up. What I did was call the clerk and bluff him. I said, “If you come down and return the money, it’s cool, otherwise, I’m going to file a police report and they’re gonna come and get you.” (It was a bluff, I knew they wouldn’t). So the guy came back and returned the money and all was right. Now in Illinois, there are two ways to handle this. First of all is to bond all your cash handling employees. That’s the point of boding. Second you can establish a “trust” fund for cash handling employees. What that is, is they agree to place so much of their money into an account each paycheck. This money may be held against any theft or shortages. However there are very strict rules about this in Illinois. For instance, EACH employee must have an individual account, (you can’t combine them). Each employee and business owner must be joint owners of the account and EACH must sign to make withdrawals on it. The account must be interest bearing and at the start of each calendar year(Not company year) the employee must be paid out all interest earned on that account. As you can see that alternative to bonding would be a lot for most places to handle. Few people would agree to that and it’d be easier to bond everyone. You can’t contract for something that is against the law. In Illinois it’s against the law for employees to be held to make up shortages, so even if you had your employees sign a waiver, it’s not going to be upheld. Now just because you can’t collect, doesn’t mean you can’t write the person up for losing money, stealing money or neglect for his/her. You could even fire him, if you’re in an at will employment state. And this gives you power, while you can’t REQUIRE them to repay the money, you can negotiate by saying, “You had a loss, if you don’t repay it, which you’re not require to, you will be let go.” There’s nothing against that. At least not in Illinois ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/29 "2010-01-24T16:29:27Z")
One anecdote: I was denied partial compensation once. The job was me going to a specific off-site location with my equipment and all. One day, I completely forgot one absolutely critical item. In this case, they paid me for the time I actually spent doing my job (from when I left with _all_ my stuff until I got back), not when I first left, since I had to go and come back. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/30 "2010-01-24T22:05:41Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:22, topic:526107”] I walked back to the restaurant, found the waitress, and gave her the money (with an extra-large tip). She was almost in tears. She said if I hadn’t come back, the boss was taking the price of that meal out of her paycheck, and it was as much as she makes in a whole shift. So that’s one anecdotal 25-year-old piece of hearsay indicating that it’s legal in Germany for employers to deduct money from employees. [/QUOTE] Not quite. The waitress may have meant that she would have to pay for it, but not that it would be legal for the employer to take the money out of paycheck. The general law in Germany, similar to the US law quoted earlier is: If an employee makes an unintentional mistake - say, drops a tray by tripping over something she hadn’t seen - then this is normal part of business and the employer (or his general insurance) has to eat the cost. If an employer makes a mistake from obvious carelessness (he should have known better, either from common sense, or because he was trained in doing things correctly, as mentioned above) or even from outright malicousness (a waitress is upset at her manager telling her to do double shift, and therefore throws a cup down on the floor) - then the employee has to pay the cost. \* The details of how the employer gets his money - by taking it from the paycheck himself, or by having the employee transferring a certain amount back to him - is a seperate matter. - There’s a nice list of office joke floating around somewhere that lists the compensation that employees have to do for mistakes on the job, starting with a low-level worker who has to pay the full 1 000 damage, to the skilled employee, who has to pay only part of the 5 000 damage, to the low manager, who gets waved off, to the big CEO, who, after he’s made a 2 mil. mistakes, get's promoted / a bonus / fired with a package of 1 mil. . Not always true, but often enough… ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/31 "2010-01-24T22:25:14Z")
My mother accidentally misplaced a deposit of around $1000. From what I understand, the company had insurance for incidences like this, so she wasn’t going to have to eat the cost. But man, did she ever feel bad about it! Coincidentally, about a month later, it showed up with a customer. She hadn’t used a purse of hers in a while, but found the deposit in it. It must have gone in accidentally with the other stuff she was purchasing. This was in the same province as **Northern Piper** - have you ever heard about insurance for this sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/32 "2010-01-24T22:59:40Z")
Since the issue of waiting tables came up, and I’ve called the Labor Board about some practices at my employer, I learned this: They can NOT deduct money from your paycheck without your permission. HOWEVER, they can demand the money from you outright. It was explained to me that they could absolutely tell me I had to pay X dollars to them or I would be fired, but they could not deduct the amount from my paycheck without written un-coerced permission. They can coerce me all they want in person, just not in writing. Another little tidbit I’ve learned, if you work for tips, they can take all of your tips as along as you make minimum wage. We currently are forced to tip out 10% to the hostess and busboy, however, they only receive 1% of that. That other 9%? That goes right into their pockets. I’m not sure how they declare/if they declare that income or if it is just cash in hand and screw the busboy. ETA: States contacted were Georgia and Florida, your jurisdiction may vary. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/33 "2010-01-24T23:10:49Z")
I’ve heard about disgruntled employees selling stuff under priced as revenge against employers. Cokes & chips for a nickle each and hamburgers for a dime. I’ve wondered what happens. Especially if it’s the employee’s last shift anyway. Prosecuting the individual might be more trouble than it’s worth. Giving discounts to friend’s have always been a problem for employers. It might be a cook at a pizza place adding extra toppings or somebody giving a double cheeseburger to a friend that ordered a single. ---
**Author:** ![enigmatic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@enigmatic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enigmatic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/34 "2010-01-24T23:30:46Z")
Yeah I must admit that this was one thing I found jarring moving from a research lab to more typical work. The academic environment seemed to have a much more relaxed attitude to expensive mistakes simply because everyone makes mistakes and in a lab they can be very expensive. Going from an environment when you are seeing people potentially screwing up to tune of thousands of pounds (please people, when you send your project student to work with antibodies make _really_ sure he knows the difference between milligrams and microgrammes :eek:) to one where the bosses are getting very upset over a few pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Auntbeast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Auntbeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Auntbeast)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/35 "2010-01-25T00:11:13Z")
Enigmatic: I had to pay for a pancake. One pancake. $1.49. Didn’t even give me the employee discount for it. Employee good will doesn’t count for shit. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/36 "2010-01-25T00:14:36Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#): > > Enigmatic: I had to pay for a pancake. One pancake. $1.49. Didn’t even give me the employee discount for it. There is no kind way of saying this, so I will just go ahead. Your boss sucks. ---
**Author:** ![MitzeKatze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@MitzeKatze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MitzeKatze)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/37 "2010-01-25T01:09:46Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#): > > Since the issue of waiting tables came up, and I’ve called the Labor Board about some practices at my employer, I learned this: > > They can NOT deduct money from your paycheck without your permission. HOWEVER, they can demand the money from you outright. > … This was the experience of my sister who had to pay for checks that were skipped out on. Her usual paycheck, as with many (most?) waitresses was for $0 anyway (after with holdings and deductions) so the threat of docking their pay would not have been very convincing, but she had to pay the money, then and there from her tips (or I guess other sources if she had the money on her). I understand the legal distinction between deducting money from the paycheck and demanding the money outright, but it seems pretty similar in practical application. Either way, it kind of sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/38 "2010-01-25T05:51:15Z")
> [@Auntbeast](#): > > Another little tidbit I’ve learned, if you work for tips, they can take all of your tips as along as you make minimum wage. We currently are forced to tip out 10% to the hostess and busboy, however, they only receive 1% of that. That other 9%? That goes right into their pockets. I’m not sure how they declare/if they declare that income or if it is just cash in hand and screw the busboy. > ETA: States contacted were Georgia and Florida, your jurisdiction may vary. It does. My ex boss got spanked by the state for requiring a 5% tipout and requiring employees take unpaid breaks where they weren’t allowed to leave the premises. We never caught the final tally but it probably cost him low five figures in back wages. Add a vigilant L&I to the fact that Washington State has the highest minimum wage in the country AND employers aren’t allowed to count an employees tips against their minimum wage, and it’s probably as good a state as you’re gonna get working a service job. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/39 "2010-01-25T13:49:24Z")
> [@Yarster](#): > > I’m not sure I understand this logic Snnipe 70E. I was hired away from a previous job for $20,000 more than I was making in April 2008, with an offer letter promising the specified salary. In May 2009, despite a great year of winning proposals, I was forced to take a $30,000 pay cut or else I would be terminated. Needless to say, I took it, immediately started looking for new work, and found a new position about four months later making back most of that money. I’m in California, which is an ‘at will’ state, and while I think my old company treated me completely unfairly on the vague basis of ‘economic downturn’ which has not affected my industry in the slightest, I have no doubt it was legal. > > My understanding is that any job in California can jerk around their employees for any reason they feel like short of something blatantly discriminatory, because of the ‘at will’ status. Though off topic, I’ve always wondered if a California company could legally entice an employee at a competitor to join them, then legally retract or restructure the job offer immediately after they joined. Let’s assume for the moment this was done because of a reasonable circumstance - company lost big contract and was downsizing, etc. This is the problem - “at will”. The law in Canada is much the same on deductions - in most provinces, unless explicitly approved by the employee, the employer cannot deduct money from an employee’s cheque. In some provinces, it explicitly says mistakes cannot be charged to the employee. The difference is the “at will”. As you said, your choice was “take it or leave”. In Canada, employment is a contract - if not explicit, then implicit. When you lay someone off without cause, or significantly change the employment contract to their detriment which is “constructive dismissal” they have the option of taking severance pay instead. The legal minimum is a week for each year of service, and for serious professionals and difficulty finding replacement work, it can get up to a month pay for each year (usually, to a max of 24 months). So here, you monkey with employment contracts at your peril. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107/40 "2010-01-25T14:02:02Z")
> [@faithfool](#): > > In the waitressing world, they consider someone skipping out on the check to be the waitress’ fault and, typically, expect her to cover for it. That is illegal and you should report any employer doing that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legal-to-hold-your-staff-personally-accountable-for-mistakes-they-make-on-the-job/526107.md?page=3)