Weird? No not for bilingual people. I’m bilingual and when I’m speaking with others who are bilingual we tend to go in and out of both languages – speaking Franglais (French and English, or Français et Anglais). It’s just however the words flow out or if there are nuances that somehow feel more precise. One sentence may be in English, the next in French, or heck, sentence may even be made of of words of both. It’s often unconcious.
Kinda like the way you’ll unconciously decide between two words that refer to the same thing. “Automobile” or “car”?.. “Use” or utilize"?.. without really thinking about it, you’ll pick the word that flows out with the greatest of ease. Are you gonna say “Dude, where’s my automobile”? No, you’ll pick the word that’s ever-so-slighlty more familiar. Same thing, I’ll fall into whichever language fits the snippet of conversation best.
When I have to speak formerly to a boss or client I’ll speak uniquely in one language, but just chit-chatting casually with bilingual friends – it’s gonna end up being both languages simultaneously. It just happens that way. At school we had to speak French only, but during recess on the playground it was always a mix of both languages.
My ex who was born in Canada will speak a hodge-podge of English and Italian when she’s visiting her family. I met a family from Lebanon and in *one[/] sentence you’d hear words in English, French, and Arabic. It’s just a phenomenon that occurs when you have the gift of more than one language.
But the OP wasn’t talking about parties. He was talking about workplace regulations. And in any case, it’s far from clear that he was ever really part of the conversations which ended up in Spanish. And in any other case, if you spend your whole time at parties chipping into other people’s conversations, you probably should head home…
I (and others) have given examples where a language switch occurs naturally for bilingual people, to the point they don’t realise they’re doing it. Yes, perhaps pointing it out (either jocularly at the time, or quietly on a later occassion, depending on circumstances) could help. But any paranoia that is cause by the change in language and with no other reason is, well, paranoia.
Perhaps my English is bad or yours is, but I thought it was pretty clear that for most of this thread, I have been talking about my own experiences with bilingual people, not the situation laid out in the OP. As I have said about a million times.
You’re being a jerk. What did I say to you to deserve such a remark?
It isn’t about paranoia, for the last time. It’s about wanting to participate in a conversation that I’d otherwise be a participant in. How is that possibly a bad thing?
[ol]
[li]This manager is a complete moron. But that’s a tautology.[/li][li]Your employees weren’t saying negative things about you before, but now they ARE. Ha ha![/li][li]Under Federal law, your company can require its employees to speak English.[/li][li]Just because it’s legal, doesn’t mean it makes any sense. This policy is going to lead to really bad publicity.[/li][li]If the managers are so paranoid, why don’t they go all the way and place surveillance cameras everywhere, so that they can ensure nobody is ever doing anything wrong?[/li][li]What a waste of time! I don’t give a damn what my employees say to me, as long as they get the results we want. Results!, damn it! The real problem with corporations is that they don’t care about the bottom line, they waste time with infighting and worrying about the employees stealing paperclips.[/li][li]Go learn some Spanish.[/li][li]Want your employees to speak English? Give free classes in English. Tell them it will help them make a better life wherever they go, avoid being cheated or taken advantage of. Allow them to practice English on the job. Have some of them teach Spanish to the managers.[/li][li]If you’re really concerned about this, don’t worry about the courts. Leak it to the local newspaper.[/li][/ol]
GorillaMan, I don’t think you’re paying attention. LeftHand of Dorkness, me, and monstro are basically saying the same thing. Have you read our posts?
Another thing I wanted to comment on:
No . . . while it’s a fabulous idea to learn another language (I’m actively trying to learn Spanish right now, by the way), you shouldn’t feel obliged to do it because there are folks in a predominantly English-speaking country who won’t bother to learn a language that is necessary for performing their job. Now, it sounds like the people in the OP are fluent enough, so what they should do is speak English when required for their job and in situations where it would be rude not to do so.
However, if a person has employees who won’t improve their English skills and therefore they cannot perform their jobs properly, they need to improve these English skills. The English-speaking employees (including the manager) should not have to learn Spanish in order to accomodate the Spanish-speakers. That is an unreasonable expectation to put upon people who are not part of the language problem, and were not (I presume) hired on with the expectation of being able to speak Spanish.
Now, I know that’s not exactly the point that the OP was talking about, (and it’s probably not the point 633squadron was trying to make either). But it’s just something that bugs me—this mindset of “Oh! They don’t speak English very well! Well, we all need learn to speak [Spanish/Korean/Farsi/etc] then!” No, we shouldn’t. Not for them. We should learn new languages for our own edification, to better ourselves, but not because some other people can’t be bothered to learn English. I know that sounds cold, but no. I figure that if someone has been here for several years and they haven’t made some small progress in learning the language, then they don’t really care all that much and it’s really not our problem. (And I’m talking about them making a “small progress” with English—I’m not expecting complete fluency. I know that lessons aren’t always easy to find and that it takes a while to learn.)
As far as offering lessons in English to the employees: well, if their English was good enough to get them hired, then it’s good enough. They don’t need additional lessons at the employer’s cost. Besides, it doesn’t sound like it’s a problem of the employees not knowing how to speak English—it’s about them refusing to speak it. (Which, I contend, is their right if they are on break or otherwise not being rude about it.)
One would expect them to only be hired if they already posess the language skills necessary for the job. And this doesn’t seem to be relevant to the OP.
And in response to the rest of your extensive post, I have already acknowledged the difference between language in the employee’s role, and language in private conversations in the workplace.
Oh, and in reply to Monstro:
Didn’t you bring up the irrelevant party analogy to start with?
By definition, you don’t know what the conversation is about - you’re assuming you’d be an active participant.
Generally, I’m right with you, but not in this case. There are certain industries in the US where the workforce is overwhelmingly native Spanish speaking. Two that come to mind are restaurants and construction. Note Pamipoo’s admission that the entire kitchen staff is native Spanish speaking. If you are in one of these industries, it is incredibly valuable to have skills in Spanish. If you are in one of these industries, it is pathetically destructive to be paranoid about people speaking Spanish in your presence.
If these guys can flat out communicate better in Spanish, and I have no doubt they can, then that is what they should use when working, only switching to English when necessary. Paranoid manager person should just grow up, sticks and stones and whatnot.
Please read the following and tell me whether or not I can consider myself an “active participant” or not.
Me: Did you hear about that lousy bum on the news yesterday? The one who killed his whole family?
Bilingual coworker: Yeah, what a jerk.
Another bilingual coworker: He lives down the street from me. And let me tell you, he’s a SWITCH TO SPANISHblah blah blah blah blah blah blah.
First bilingual coworker: laughingBlah blah blah blah blah blah
Me: Um…what he said.
This is what I’m talking about. One moment we’re all speaking English. The next moment everyone else is speaking Spanish but me. Now, we can argue about whether or not it’s rude (I think it is), but surely you don’t expect someone NOT to feel any negative feelings when they are in a situation like this.
I can accept that bilingual people can’t help switching languages. So why can’t you seem to understand that others can’t help feeling awkward when they do it? I’ve never known you to have a thick head in the past. Why are you having such a hard time with this?
And ya know what? Causing tension goes both ways. Making everyone speaking one language is divisive, but so is having a workplace where half the people speak one way and the other half speaks another. There has to be a middle ground. I think people who are blessed with bilinguality should make an effort to accomodate the monolingual in their presence. The monolingual should learn another language. Everyone should strive for a common language and stick to it when they can. I really don’t see this being such a big deal.
It was not irrelevant to my experience. I used the analogy to help Burrido understand why I didn’t think he/she was accurate in calling me an eavesdropper. You were a jerk with your “maybe you should go home” remark. Totally uncalled for.
Uh, yeah, which is why I specifically wrote: " . . . Now, I know that’s not exactly the point that the OP was talking about."
If the Spanish language is such an issue in a particular workplace, then all employees should be hired with the understanding that the should understand Spanish. If the employer fails to hire bilingual speakers, he’s shit out of luck if he later wishes them to start learning it in order to better communicate with the other workers. (Note: I realize that this probably isn’t the case with Pamipoo’s job. I’m just speaking generally here.)
Well, yeah, especially when the people aren’t being rude (as in what monstro, LHoD and I have described). I personally don’t have a problem with it.
I just got off on a tangent by the suggestion from 633squadron that the boss encourage the other coworkers to learn Spanish. I don’t think he has a right to such an expectation from his workers, unless he told them when he hired them that they would be expected to speak Spanish. And frankly, in the food service industry, I suspect that a lot of these employers are too cheap to pay handsomely for all bilingual employees. So what do they get? These sort of situations. If I were working at a fast food place for (let’s say) $7 or $8 an hour and all of a sudden they said I needed to learn Spanish in order to communicate with my coworkers, I’d tell them to take a flying leap. (And once again, I’m going off on a tangent, since this wasn’t the exact scenario described in the OP. I’m just sayin’.)
I agree that he’s probably being an ass about it (especially if he’s forbidding Spanish being spoken when the employees are on break, etc.).
I have to wonder though—how often is it really necessary for some of them to speak in Spanish? If their English is fluent enough (and I’ve known plenty of people like this), then the notion that they “communicate better” in Spanish isn’t going to wash. They communicate just fine in English (perhaps with a slight accent). They speak Spanish because they prefer to, not because it’s helping them do their job better. Now, personally I don’t care if they speak in Spanish in many circumstances, (as long as it’s not rude), because . . . I don’t care. I’m from L.A. I’m used to it. Don’t care.
But let’s say that their English is pretty pathetic. I understand them lapsing into Spanish when the work is flowing and they are focusing in getting the job done. But at other times, wouldn’t it be better if they were encouraged to speak English? The more people cater to them (by learning Spanish to communicate with them, etc.), the more they will feel that they are not expected to improve their English skills. Thus, the more cemented in their ways they will be. Which leads us to many people who have been in a predominantly-English-speaking country for years and sometimes decades while knowing almost no English.
Now, personally, I am not all that concerned if someone lives here for decades and doesn’t know English. If they find a way to get along, fine. But I don’t want to be told, “So-and-so [who has been here 10 years] can’t speak English. We need to learn Spanish in order to communicate with him/her.” No. I am not doing that. And once again, I realize that I am straying from the OP’s premise. I’m just talking in generalities. I’ve seen situations like this crop up, and it irks me. If I decide to learn a langauge, I’ll decide which one I get to learn. Maybe I want to learn French instead of Spanish. Or perhaps I really have a hankering to learn Japanese. I don’t appreciate someone else telling me what I “ought” to learn, especially when they are basically asking me to cater to someone who obviously does not want to bestir themselves to learn English. If, however, I take on a job with the understanding that I need to learn a certain language, I’ll learn the language or not take the job.
(Okay, so this is just a tangental rant at this point. Move along, move along, nothing to see here . . . )
I think that the hilarious thing here is that the owner of the restaurant has gotten exactly the kind of chaos he deserves for paying so many of the employees so poorly. Why do you think that all the lower-level employees are native Spanish speakers? It’s because he (I’ll use “he” in referring to the owner) is paying the lower-level employees so poorly that the only people who want the job are recent immigrants who can’t find any other job. The managers are native English speakers, so I presume that they are paid something close to a living wage (although I still find it suspicious that none of them are native Spanish speakers). Hey, pay poorly and you get unhappy employees. You want to make employees happier? Then pay better.
It can be a bad thing because it impose a constraint on other people, and your benefit often isn’t worth this constraint.
To give an example, I was recently at a friend’s place. She’s Ukranian. There were 6 of us, half were Ukranians or Russians, half French or Swiss. The three russians all spoke French very well, but still were more comfortable in Russian, obviously. Not of us French or Swiss spoke Russian. Most of the conversations did take place in french, and the three russians made obvious efforts to speak french. However, they would from time to time switch to Russian when adressing each other or speaking amongst themselves.
Of course, they could have used French at all times. But it would have been burdensome for them (I don’t know if you fully realize that speaking a foreign language is a serious hindrance to your ability to express yourself, and also require efforts), and for what benefit? So that we could understand chit-chat most probably of zero interest to us? In a group, not everybody is involved at all time in one general conversation. A and B speak together about something only of interest to them, while C, D and E are talking about something else, for instance. It doesn’t change a thing if A and B switch to some foreign language they’re more comfortable with for a couple minutes.
The minimal benefit for you of knowing what they’re talking about at all times and being able to chime in case it would be of sme interest isn’t worth the hassle for them of being obligated to use a language they aren’t 100% comfortable with at all times. We’re expecting to relax when meeting friends, and so do they.
I don’t think anybody’s arguing that it’s necessary - but equally I’m arguing that it’s not necessary for them to avoid Spanish, except when specific requirements of the job mean otherwise.
> 99% of our employees are natives of Guatemala or the Dominican Republic, and
> speak Spanish.
Incidentally, I suspect that Pammipoo’s arithmetic is a crock. She said that there are several managers who don’t speak Spanish. She claims that 99% of the restaurant’s employees speak Spanish. That would mean that the restaurant has at least 200 employees. (This isn’t the first time I’ve seen people do this. Some people don’t believe that X% is a mathematical statement. They think that they are entitled to make up percentages according to what makes them feel good.)
except that it’s not a mathematical statement. i don’t like the use myself, but i read it as:
25% - quarter
50% - half
80% - alot
90% - most
99% - almost all
101% - to go beyond what is called for
And what about the common (in my experience) situation where everyone in the room or at the table speaks language A and is having a conversation in language B that only one or two people don’t speak. Once in a while this happens to me at work. Doesn’t really bother me at work because it’s only once in a while. Bothers me a whole lot more when I’m at a wedding or some other event in my husband’s family, and my choices are to have three hour long conversation with my husband (which I could have done at home), ask him to translate the entire conversation (which doesn’t work well) or sit in silence while listening for the rare bit of English that is invariably addressed to me. Sure, they’re relaxed. I’m not relaxed. I’m checking my watch and wondering why they invite me and get upset if I find a reason to decline when they don’t want to talk to me.
Percentage statements are mathematical statements. If you mean “almost all,” then say “almost all.” People who say things like “You’ve got to give 110% in this situation” are showing their ignorance of mathematics.