# Is it legally still theft if it was unintentional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 21, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809 "2013-08-21T16:28:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/41 "2013-08-22T15:45:42Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > The checker atthe corner gas station screamed at me one morning that he was sick of me comming in and pouring a cup of coffee and walking out without paying. He said he lost count of how many times I did it. I would stop in each morning on my way to work for coffee. I had no clue I had done this. More details??? It sounds like you thought the gas station put out free coffee for the customers. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/42 "2013-08-22T15:54:24Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Something that I have done occasionally at supermarkets is put something on the bottom rack of the cart, go through checkout and at my car notice it in there and not sure if it got wrung up or not. Did I place it on the counter and the bag boy put it in the bottom again? Can’t remember. Should I recheck the whole shopping ticket to see if it got wrung up? > > Hot and tired I’ve said to hell with it and driven home. I always figure that in the long run, it balances out with the times when the opposite happens, i.e. you put something in the cart, it gets scanned, and one way or another, it doesn’t make it into the bags to go home, or I forget an entire bag of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/43 "2013-08-23T12:45:56Z")
Actually the opposite has happened to me too. Get home, wife says “” Where’s the bottle of ??? you were supposed to buy?" Check receipt and it’s on there. Rung up and never bagged somehow. Worth the trouble and gas to drive back the store? No way. Same thing… I just said “to hell with it.” And technically that could be considered theft by store from me…assuming they found the item later and restocked it. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/44 "2013-08-23T13:20:18Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > More details??? > > It sounds like you thought the gas station put out free coffee for the customers. I am sure I paid for the coffee the great majority of the time, I can’t really give details because I have no recollection of walking out without paying. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/45 "2013-08-23T14:22:36Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I am sure I paid for the coffee the great majority of the time, I can’t really give details because I have no recollection of walking out without paying. Might just have been mistaken identity by the clerk. ---
**Author:** ![staili](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c57346/32.png) [@staili](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/staili)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/46 "2013-08-23T14:47:59Z")
I hope this is not veering too far off-topic, but if someone damages an item in a store in what was obviously an accident, does a shopkeeper who insists on getting reimbursed for the damage have any legal backup for that stance? As for me, in the rare circumstances when I’ve noticed an item wasn’t rung up properly once I’ve returned home, I’ve never gone back again because I’m worried the cashier might get in trouble. I guess if it was something that was more than a few dollars, I might go back, but that’s never actually come up. ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/47 "2013-08-23T14:50:42Z")
> [@staili](#): > > I hope this is not veering too far off-topic, but if someone damages an item in a store in what was obviously an accident, does a shopkeeper who insists on getting reimbursed for the damage have any legal backup for that stance? YES, the breakage was a “direct causation” of the customer’s negligence, even if it was “slight” negligence. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/48 "2013-08-23T15:23:11Z")
> [@staili](#): > > I hope this is not veering too far off-topic, but if someone damages an item in a store in what was obviously an accident, does a shopkeeper who insists on getting reimbursed for the damage have any legal backup for that stance? > > As for me, in the rare circumstances when I’ve noticed an item wasn’t rung up properly once I’ve returned home, I’ve never gone back again because I’m worried the cashier might get in trouble. I guess if it was something that was more than a few dollars, I might go back, but that’s never actually come up. That last part is one reason I’ve said to myself “to hell with it” and driven home. Jobs are lost too easily these days and hard to refind. Going back into the store and bringing it up may end up being the third strike against some hapless cashier or bagger. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/49 "2013-08-23T15:27:07Z")
> [@staili](#): > > I hope this is not veering too far off-topic, but if someone damages an item in a store in what was obviously an accident, does a shopkeeper who insists on getting reimbursed for the damage have any legal backup for that stance? [Previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=685652) ---
**Author:** ![from\_a\_to\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5fc32e/32.png) [@from\_a\_to\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/from_a_to_z)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/50 "2013-08-23T16:53:15Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I’m giving a talk about plagiarism to my class tomorrow and one of the things I wanted to stress is that most plagiarism is not deliberately stealing another person’s work but unintentional (e.g. not citing what you need to, paraphrasing too closely, etc.)… How did the talk go? With a class of Straight Dopers I can imagine “most plagiarism is not deliberately stealing” being questioned with “Cite?”. And with “the representation of another author’s work as one’s own”, to use a common definition, there is the issue of ethics. A useful, 24-year-old, overview of plagiarism is Thomas Mallon’s 1989 book _Stolen Words_, Walter Kendrick’s _The New York Times_ review [here](http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/29/books/the-other-side-of-originality.html), Amazon [here](http://www.amazon.com/Stolen-Words-Classic-Book-Plagiarism/dp/0156011360/). An example of ethics is taking from works that are out of copyright. For example, O. Henry’s 1905 _The Gift of the Magi_ has reappeared in subsequent works such as Argentinian author Jorge Bucay’s “Un relato sobre amor” (“A Story About Love”), in Spanish [here](http://www.elixiresparaelalma.com.ar/blog/2009/07/29/un-relato-sobre-amor-de-jorge-bucay/), for example. Project Gutenberg has a copy of O. Henry [here](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/7256/7256-h/7256-h.htm). Did Bucay ever credit O. Henry? Or did O. Henry also take the plot from an earlier source? And where did [Aesop](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesop) for example get his fables? (Not to mention Wikipedia.) And if an author like Laurence Sterne (1713-1768) borrows from, and improves upon, the works of other authors (Wikipedia overview [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Life_and_Opinions_of_Tristram_Shandy,_Gentleman#Artistic_incorporation_and_accusations_of_plagiarism)), how clear is the line between between taking and re-creating? Further, plagiarism includes other other arts such as music. An overview of Led Zeppelin, “These guys sound great until you hear all the old records they stole their riffs from”, is [here](http://www.warr.org/zep.html). Another issue is self-plagiarism, for example re-selling (part of) one’s work to another buyer. For current info, a site like _Language Log_ [here](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/index.php?s=plagiarism) has comments more articulate than mine. ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/51 "2013-08-24T08:46:00Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Intentional or not – it’s theft. > > However, if the clerk at the checkout does undercharge or count items wrong in your favour – it’s technically theft since you are leaving with an unpaid item in your shopping bag, but they would have a hard time prosecuting you for their mistake. Incorrect. Assuming that you are not in cahoots with the clerk (I love the word “cahoots”) and the stuff you bought was all plainly visible (not hidden in your pocket), then you and the clerk basically had a contract to buy “x Stuff” for “y bucks”. You have the stuff. You paid the money. Contract fulfilled. Now keep in mind, I’m not making a _moral_ argument here… ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/52 "2013-08-24T08:56:08Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > There is also the tort of [conversion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_%28law%29)which seems like a more generalized version of theft that doesn’t require mens rea like real theft does. Could “unintentional shoplifting” count as that? I was considering the same thing. Usually conversion requires that you _did_ have a right/permission to have the item in question at some point; instead of giving it back, you _converted_ the item into your possession. Intent to deprive is not needed for conversion, so that fits. And at least some cases of conversion do _not_ require that you had a previous right to the item in question. I think I would have to agree with you, that unintentional shoplifting is more likely to be conversion than theft. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/53 "2013-08-24T10:25:03Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Something that I have done occasionally at supermarkets is put something on the bottom rack of the cart, go through checkout and at my car notice it in there and not sure if it got wrung up or not. Did I place it on the counter and the bag boy put it in the bottom again? Can’t remember. Should I recheck the whole shopping ticket to see if it got wrung up? > > Hot and tired I’ve said to hell with it and driven home. Can’t you just check if it’s still as wet as when you put it on the cart? ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/54 "2013-08-24T11:59:10Z")
Don’t understand that one. Wet?? Will admit that what I should have done was to go through the whole receipt to see if it had been wrung up and ,if not, go back into the store and pay for it. What gives me pause is I may end up getting either the cashier or bagger in trouble by doing that. I would be perceived as the unusually honest and upright customer. Hoorah for me. And some poor schmuck might lose his/her job just to make me look good. ---
**Author:** ![isaiahrobinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@isaiahrobinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/isaiahrobinson)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/55 "2013-08-24T12:58:25Z")
I’ve set out below how the law in England would deal with your examples. The background is that the definition of theft is “A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it”: > [@Sampiro](#): > > Many if not most people have problem unintentionally shoplifted before (one of my most embarrassing moments was stealing a prayer book from a Civil War battlefield gift store [I just totally forgot I had it in my hand and walked out with it- never did send it back, actually]). > > So whether it’s a candy bar or an emerald necklace, if you can prove that you did not intend to steal it, is it still legally theft? I know you can still be prosecuted and held accountable for its return and any damages, but I’m curious whether it’s legally still theft if you can somehow prove you did not intend to steal it. You had not committed theft when you walked out of the store with your prayer book, but as soon as you realised you’d taken it and decided not to send it back, it became theft. This is because ‘appropriating’ property includes coming by it innocently but then deciding to keep it. At that point you have dishonestly appropriated it. > [@](#): > > However, if the clerk at the checkout does undercharge or count items wrong in your favour – it’s technically theft since you are leaving with an unpaid item in your shopping bag, but they would have a hard time prosecuting you for their mistake. This depends on whether you realised the clerk had done this, and whether you thought it was deliberate. If you never realise they’ve undercharged you, it’s not theft. If you realise they’ve undercharged you but mistakenly think they’ve done it deliberately, e.g. as a favour for a good customer, then it’s not theft. But if you realise they’ve accidentally undercharged you, either at the time or later after you’ve left the store, but decide not to go back and pay for it, then (technically) it’s theft. I’d recommend reading the first 6 sections of the UK [Theft Act 1968](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/contents): they’re very brief and they clearly and explicitly set out how the law deals with these kind of examples. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/56 "2013-08-24T14:48:58Z")
> [@ombre12](#): > > Don’t understand that one. Wet?? > > Will admit that what I should have done was to go through the whole receipt to see if it had been wrung up and ,if not, go back into the store and pay for it. > > What gives me pause is I may end up getting either the cashier or bagger in trouble by doing that. > > I would be perceived as the unusually honest and upright customer. Hoorah for me. And some poor schmuck might lose his/her job just to make me look good. A cashier rings up your purchases. Wringing something up is what you do to a wet rag to get the water out. Just a friendly spelling joke. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/57 "2013-08-24T17:21:23Z")
> [@Bremidon](#): > > I was considering the same thing. Usually conversion requires that you _did_ have a right/permission to have the item in question at some point; instead of giving it back, you _converted_ the item into your possession. Intent to deprive is not needed for conversion, so that fits. And at least some cases of conversion do _not_ require that you had a previous right to the item in question. > > I think I would have to agree with you, that unintentional shoplifting is more likely to be conversion than theft. Different jurisdictions treat it differently, but generally “conversion” is the trespassory taking intentional or not, of the property of another and in doing so you deprive the owner of all of the value of it. If you only partially devalue the item it is a “trespass to chattels.” So, if I am at Subway and mindlessly pick up a sandwich off of the wrong table and eat it, I am liable to the owner for conversion: the fair market value of the sandwich. But I’m not guilty of a crime. If I borrow the neighbor’s car without permission, drive it 200 miles, and return it, I am liable to him for a trespass to his chattel in the value of 200 miles worth of wear and tear and any other damage I might have done. Since the law wants to discourage this type of behavior, it has passed criminal joyriding statutes to address this situation. But, if it wasn’t intentional. Say I got into an identical looking car (and for whatever reason my key worked) and drove it, I haven’t broken any law, but did commit a trespass to the true owner’s car and I owe him diminution in value damages. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/58 "2013-08-24T17:34:35Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > I believe the term _rens mea_ covers what you are asking. _Mens rea_ = “mind of the accused.” _Rens mea_ = “my kidneys.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/59 "2013-08-24T19:27:16Z")
> [@isaiahrobinson](#): > > I’ve set out below how the law in England would deal with your examples. The background is that the definition of theft is “A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it”: > > You had not committed theft when you walked out of the store with your prayer book, but as soon as you realised you’d taken it and decided not to send it back, it became theft. This is because ‘appropriating’ property includes coming by it innocently but then deciding to keep it. At that point you have dishonestly appropriated it. > > This depends on whether you realised the clerk had done this, and whether you thought it was deliberate. > > If you never realise they’ve undercharged you, it’s not theft. > If you realise they’ve undercharged you but mistakenly think they’ve done it deliberately, e.g. as a favour for a good customer, then it’s not theft. > But if you realise they’ve accidentally undercharged you, either at the time or later after you’ve left the store, but decide not to go back and pay for it, then (technically) it’s theft. > > I’d recommend reading the first 6 sections of the UK [Theft Act 1968](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/contents): they’re very brief and they clearly and explicitly set out how the law deals with these kind of examples. So, then based upon that, if the merchant _does_ charge you for the item, but “forgets” to put in in your bag, is he guilty of theft? How about later, when he realizes what he has done? ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/60 "2013-08-25T01:47:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, then based upon that, if the merchant _does_ charge you for the item, but “forgets” to put in in your bag, is he guilty of theft? How about later, when he realizes what he has done? If he intended to “forget”, then yes, that would be theft. If he did not intend, then that would be conversion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809.md?page=4)