# Is it legally still theft if it was unintentional? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 21, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809 "2013-08-21T16:28:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/61 "2013-08-25T01:54:03Z")
> [@isaiahrobinson](#): > > I’ve set out below how the law in England would deal with your examples. The background is that the definition of theft is “A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it”: > > You had not committed theft when you walked out of the store with your prayer book, but as soon as you realised you’d taken it and decided not to send it back, it became theft. This is because ‘appropriating’ property includes coming by it innocently but then deciding to keep it. At that point you have dishonestly appropriated it. > > This depends on whether you realised the clerk had done this, and whether you thought it was deliberate. > > If you never realise they’ve undercharged you, it’s not theft. > If you realise they’ve undercharged you but mistakenly think they’ve done it deliberately, e.g. as a favour for a good customer, then it’s not theft. > But if you realise they’ve accidentally undercharged you, either at the time or later after you’ve left the store, but decide not to go back and pay for it, then (technically) it’s theft. > > I’d recommend reading the first 6 sections of the UK [Theft Act 1968](http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/contents): they’re very brief and they clearly and explicitly set out how the law deals with these kind of examples. “But if you realise they’ve accidentally undercharged you, either at the time or later after you’ve left the store, but decide not to go back and pay for it, then (technically) it’s theft.” What are you precisely basing this on? Once the cashier charges you and you pay, you and the cashier have both created and performed the contract. This is assuming that you were not deliberately or accidentally hiding something from the cashier. Is this explicitely dealt with? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/62 "2013-08-25T08:59:06Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But, if it wasn’t intentional. Say I got into an identical looking car (and for whatever reason my key worked) and drove it, I haven’t broken any law, but did commit a trespass to the true owner’s car and I owe him diminution in value damages. It will be interesting to see this come up in court one day. You may be aware that there are keyless entry _and start_ cars now. In theory, you approch the car, sit down and drive away, with the key in your pocket. In practice, one day you will leave the key in the car while you walk away, and someone else who owns a _similar car_ will absent-mindedly drive away. I know of one case where this has almost happened. I’m waiting with interest to hear what happens when the police get involved. BTW, where I live there is no special “joy riding” law. It’s just defined as strict-liability theft. ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/63 "2013-08-25T11:26:18Z")
I haven’t thought about this for some time, but I _almost_ became a poster boy for exactly this scenario. I had an old Mustang back when I was 18 or so, and after grabbing some stuff at the store, I went back to the car, unlocked the door, got in, put the key in the ignition, and… suddenly realized there was baby stuff on the passenger side. “Hmm,” thinks I, “who put _that_ there?” Which, of course, started the process that ended with the realization that this was not my car. Quietly getting out and half-expecting some furious mama bear to charge me with her shopping cart, I saw that my car was two or three spaces further down in the lot. For a long time I wondered what would have happened if I would have tried to turn the ignition… ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/64 "2013-08-25T12:53:50Z")
Question: Will anybody believe you lacked intent? ---
**Author:** ![Bremidon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Bremidon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bremidon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/65 "2013-08-25T13:04:45Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Question: Will anybody believe you lacked intent? I suppose if it’s similar to what happened to me with the car, why not? Cars look the same, keys work in both…every alternative explanation is more fantastical than a simple mistake. If you mean a merchant not putting the item in your bag? It will all depend on what happens next, I guess. If the merchant puts it aside for a reasonable time period in canse the customer comes back to claim the item, then lack of intent would be pretty clear. If he simply takes it home with him, then it becomes more reasonable to assume intent. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/66 "2013-08-25T13:47:25Z")
You could actually commit a robbery unintentionally. I remember a TV movie from the 1980s which was a about a group of travellers from Germany who visit the United States for the first time. The tour guide warns the travellers about muggers and pickpockets and urges everybody to be extremely alert. At the hotel, the protagonist, still very excited about everything and jet-lagged, leaves his room to explore the property. In the elevator, he bumps into a stranger. Half a minute or so later, he remembers the warnings about pickpockets and their modus operandi. He checks for his wallet: It’s not there! He runs back all the way he came from, finds the man he ran into earlier, grabs him by his jacket and shouts at him: “You bastard, gimme the wallet!”. The other guy, terribly frightened, does as ordered. Minutes later, the protagonist realizes that the wallet he just took away from the stranger is not his. He also remembers that his own wallet actually is still in his hotel room. ---
**Author:** ![ombre12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d26b3c/32.png) [@ombre12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ombre12)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/67 "2013-08-25T17:19:58Z")
> [@naita](#): > > A cashier rings up your purchases. Wringing something up is what you do to a wet rag to get the water out. Just a friendly spelling joke. 😉 Yes, I get it now. I even knew I had misspelled rung, but too late to change it. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/68 "2013-08-28T18:56:43Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > I’m reminded of the _Foxtrot_ cartoon on plagarism: > > Teacher - “Jason, this was supposed to be an original essay. All you did was copy the Wikipedia entry.” > Jason - “Prove I didn’t write the Wikipedia entry”. Hey, that was [Peter](http://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2006/09/07). ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/69 "2013-08-28T21:23:39Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > It will be interesting to see this come up in court one day. You may be aware that there are keyless entry _and start_ cars now. In theory, you approch the car, sit down and drive away, with the key in your pocket. In practice, one day you will leave the key in the car while you walk away, and someone else who owns a _similar car_ will absent-mindedly drive away. > > I know of one case where this has almost happened. I’m waiting with interest to hear what happens when the police get involved. > > BTW, where I live there is no special “joy riding” law. It’s just defined as strict-liability theft. I think the chances of that happening are very, very slim. You would need two exact cars where one driver (driver A) leaves the key in their car and doesn’t lock the door. Assuming driver B is in the habit of locking his car, upon trying to unlock the car, the car will beep angrily at him (first clue). If driver B also doesn’t care about locking/unlocking doors, he would still need to overlook all the possible differences in driver A’s car (seat and mirror position, radio station, personal items, trunk contents, etc.), as well as the Smart Key sitting somewhere in the car. Even if driver B manages to miss all that and drive off, I doubt the result would amount to any more than a humerous misunderstanding. Here is how it would likely play out: –driver B drives off in driver A’s car. –driver A comes out and car is missing. –It probably won’t take long for driver A to notice driver B’s identical car parked nearby. –Police run the tags on driver B’s car and track him down. –Hilarity insues. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/70 "2013-08-28T21:29:39Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I think the chances of that happening are very, very slim. Don’t underestimate the likelihood of it happening with the new keyless systems. There have been [cases](http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_20952353/roadshow-weird-tales-keys-that-fit-wrong-car) of people driving off in the wrong car even with regular old keys because they coincidentally parked near a car of the same make, model, and color as theirs that their keys worked in to open the doors and start. ---
**Author:** ![isaiahrobinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/85e7bf/32.png) [@isaiahrobinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/isaiahrobinson)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/71 "2013-08-29T00:03:42Z")
> [@Bremidon](#): > > “But if you realise they’ve accidentally undercharged you, either at the time or later after you’ve left the store, but decide not to go back and pay for it, then (technically) it’s theft.” > > What are you precisely basing this on? Once the cashier charges you and you pay, you and the cashier have both created and performed the contract. This is assuming that you were not deliberately or accidentally hiding something from the cashier. Is this explicitely dealt with? (Bear in mind this is under English law). The contract you agreed with the cashier was that you would pay full price. If he accidentally undercharges you, and you realise it was an accident - whether at the time or later on - then you’ve knowingly underpaid. Now if you genuinely thought the cashier had charged you less deliberately, because he’s nice or because you’re a good customer, then that wouldn’t meet the definition of theft. [QUOTE=DrDeth] So, then based upon that, if the merchant does charge you for the item, but “forgets” to put in in your bag, is he guilty of theft? How about later, when he realizes what he has done? [/QUOTE] How would he find the customer? If he has contact details, such as a phone number, then he should take reasonable steps to contact the customer. If he has no contact details, I’d say he should hold the item aside for a period of time in case the customer comes back to collect it. The question is whether the cashier was ‘dishonest’ in keeping the property, and whether he has the intention of permanently depriving the customer of it. NB: Incidentally, to answer the OP’s question clearly: No, not under English law. Here the ‘intention’ to permanently deprive, and the mental state of ‘dishonesty’ in doing so, are requirements for it to be deemed theft. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/72 "2013-08-29T13:05:10Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I am sure I paid for the coffee the great majority of the time, I can’t really give details because I have no recollection of walking out without paying. A little off topic, but. Grocery shopping this weekend, this thread on my mind. My local supermarket has a fairly extensive bakery and prepared foods section. It’s located near several industrial businesses and there aren’t a lot of fast food options nearby so they do a fair amount of breakfast/lunch business. There’s always a coffeepot out, I always figured they sold coffee to go with the morning pastries. This morning I noticed a big sign over the coffeepot **FREE COFFEE** and I thought of HoneyBadgerDC as I poured a cup. Free coffee, who knew ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/73 "2013-08-29T18:06:27Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Hey, that was [Peter](http://www.gocomics.com/foxtrot/2006/09/07). I tried doing a search but all it did was find me other comics. Doh! I recall reading about something similar, where someone borrowed the other fellow’s car for the evening (trailer hitch), so they swapped car keys. It was the type (Camry?) where you just needed the key in your pocket. he went down to the employee parking lot, got in drove away… Came back the next day, parked it, and the fellow said “why didn’t you take the car?” Turns out it was an identical model, and the owner being lazy left the key inside the car. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809/74 "2013-08-30T04:35:47Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > I think the chances of that happening are very, very slim. You would need two exact cars where one driver (driver A) leaves the key in their car and doesn’t lock the door… > –It probably won’t take long for driver A to notice driver B’s identical car parked nearby. > –Police run the tags on driver B’s car and track him down. > –Hilarity insues. In the case I knew, the (thief) was actually driving his other car. The (identical) car was with his wife at the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-legally-still-theft-if-it-was-unintentional/666809.md?page=3)