# Is it merely religious bigotry that keeps Prostitution illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930 "2009-05-28T14:56:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/41 "2009-05-28T16:42:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > the only reasons to oppose prostitution are religious reasons How so? What are the “religious reasons” for opposing prostitution? I know that many people oppose prostitution for _moral_ reasons, and that religious people’s morality is generally informed by their religion, but it is possible to hold moral beliefs, including the belief that prostitution is immoral, without being religious. So what’s the link between religion and prostitution? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/42 "2009-05-28T16:45:11Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > They didn’t seem **to** put out by spending their money on me. Well no, they weren’t the ones who were supposed to put out in that situation. 😛 Sorry, but it was just sitting there all irresistible-like. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/43 "2009-05-28T16:55:29Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well as prostitution is basically legal at the higher echelons and only illegal at the poorer ends of the spectrum, I’d say yeah it is a form of classism. It’s ok to date someone expecting fine hotels, them to pay for your apartment and buy you valuable durable goods such as jewelry that can be exchanged for money if the relationship ends, but it’s not ok to take cash on the night stand. This may sound like a funny question, but the above quote by mswas leads me to wonder if prostitution IS illegal? I don’t know about the US with its 50 criminal codes, but in Canada, where the the criminal code is federal, it is _solliciting_ and _pimping_ that are illegal, but not prostitution as such. And I suspect that the situation may be the same in many US states. Why? Because **THERE IS NOWHERE TO DRAW THE LINE!** when you want to illegalize prostitution. My dictionary defines prostitution as “the act of engaging in sexual intercourse for pay”. Okay, so now, please tell me when this becomes prostitution. John meets Sally on the street and they strike up a conversation. He invites her for a drink. John says Sally turns him on. Sally says: “They rent rooms here you know!” John rents a room and he pays for it. They go up and have sex. They both enjoyed it and exchange phone numbers, promising to meet again. John says he is short of money right now to catch a taxi. Hasn’t been paid because his employer is going broke. Could Sally spot him something? Sally puts $200 on the nightstand. "Go ahead, stud, take it, I’m good for it. You’ll find a way to pay me back, she giggles. John takes it, with thanks. (PS: John is a 25-year-old hunk and Sally is 50 and past her prime. But John has a long history of dating older women because he is genuinely turned on by them.). In the following weeks, John and Sally meet often, at Sally’s luxury condo. They have sex each time. Sally buys John expensive watches and other gifts. She regularly gives him $200 to “help him out until he gets a job.” John protests, but she says, “Relax, I enjoy helping you out and I’m loaded.” Is there prostitution going on here? Where do you draw the line? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/44 "2009-05-28T16:59:58Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well no, they weren’t the ones who were supposed to put out in that situation. 😛 > > Sorry, but it was just sitting there all irresistible-like. I couldn’t even figure it out, until you highlighted the word “to”. Ah, what a difference an “o” makes. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/45 "2009-05-28T19:11:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So is it merely bigotry that keeps Prostitution illegal? I don’t think it’s “merely” religion that keeps it legal. Personally, I think prostitution is just plain icky. I don’t want to share a Coca-Cola with another person let alone have my little guy run into a public arch. I’m also for the legalization of prostitution but on a personal level it’s just gross. There are some other reasons why prostitution might be legal. Do you want a brothel opening up near you? The only legal brothels here in the United States are located in areas where there aren’t a lot of neighbors (I think, someone might confirm that for me because I’m lazy.) Prostitution isn’t seen as an honorable profession and I don’t think that’s going to change any time soon. Those of us who favor legalization probably don’t want to see our sons or daughters make a living at whoring no matter how good they might be at it. Odesio ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/46 "2009-05-28T19:38:20Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I don’t think it’s “merely” religion that keeps it legal. Personally, I think prostitution is just plain icky. I don’t want to share a Coca-Cola with another person let alone have my little guy run into a public arch. I’m also for the legalization of prostitution but on a personal level it’s just gross. > > There are some other reasons why prostitution might be legal. Do you want a brothel opening up near you? The only legal brothels here in the United States are located in areas where there aren’t a lot of neighbors (I think, someone might confirm that for me because I’m lazy.) Prostitution isn’t seen as an honorable profession and I don’t think that’s going to change any time soon. Those of us who favor legalization probably don’t want to see our sons or daughters make a living at whoring no matter how good they might be at it. > > Odesio Well I live in New York City so it’s likely that there is a brothel near me already, I just don’t know about it. 😉 But people could open sole proprietorships anyway and it would just be a lady who discreetly entertains guests. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/47 "2009-05-28T20:13:29Z")
I’m losing track of the debate here. Is it: 1. Is it religiously bigotry that keeps prostitution illegal? (I think that has been answered in the negative) 2. Is it bigotry to look down on someone because of their profession? (I think the answer is that “bigot” is the wrong term, maybe snobbery is better?) 3. Is it, should prostition be legalized? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/48 "2009-05-28T20:24:51Z")
Cecil has a good article on [why](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2533/why-is-prostitution-illegal) prostitution is illegal. I don’t think it’s solely because of religious prejudice. > [@](#): > > Because hookers are a nuisance, that’s why. Always around when you don’t want them, and never there when you do. > > Prostitution isn’t a felony. In most U.S. jurisdictions it’s a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine and a short stretch in jail. In parts of Nevada, it isn’t even that–prostitution is legal, though regulated. > > Fine, you say. But why should prostitution be considered any kind of crime? The victims aren’t complaining. Why should the rest of us care? > > The usual explanation is that criminalization of prostitution is a product of the moralizing impulse in American politics. As with other victimless crimes such as gambling and drug use, our antiprostitution laws largely date from the Progressive era around the turn of the 20th century. This period also produced reforms such as the pure food and drugs laws and antitrust regulation. > > Many Progressive leaders were educated, articulate members of the middle class that had emerged during the economic expansion following the Civil War. No longer was it necessary to accept social ills as inevitable, they felt. If we apply scientific methods and can-do attitude to our problems, we can eradicate them altogether. > > In many respects the Progressive project was a great success. Today everybody is grateful that we have pure food laws and antitrust regulation. (Well, maybe Bill Gates isn’t.) The legacy of the antiprostitution campaign is perhaps a little less positive. > [@](#): > > So: different legal theories, same result. That’s the thing about prostitution, see. Whatever may be said for the rights of prostitutes in the abstract, streetwalkers don’t do much for a neighborhood’s property values. Sure, in these liberated times, we all have healthy attitudes about sex, right? But even among defenders of prostitutes’ rights, the fundamental reaction to the business itself remains: ick. -XT ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/49 "2009-05-28T20:38:28Z")
If it was legal they wouldn’t be walking the streets. Hell street walking is already mostly a thing of the past. Though the new regulation on Craigslist might change that. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/50 "2009-05-28T22:22:08Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > People are probably born schizophrenic too. That doesn’t mean we allow any manifestation of their behavior. Uh, actually we do. Most schizophrenic behavior is perfectly legal. It’s not a crime to suffer from delusions, schizophasia (“word salad”), lack of affect, etc. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/51 "2009-05-28T22:35:19Z")
With regards to the OP, I don’t think it’s so much RELIGIOUS bigotry as in morals in general. Many atheists have claimed that they don’t need religion to direct their moral compass, and to a certain degree it’s true. However, more often than not it’s an atheist that would argue for the legalization of marijuana, prostitution, and other vices. Now i’m not saying that marijuana or prostitution are deadly sins, but it does speak volumes as to the type of society that we would like to be. In keeping those things in the realm of the black market, it takes a moral stand that those behaviors are frowned upon by the society as a whole, regardless of religious affiliation. If you really want to play the odds and break the law, you can go ahead and do so, and more likely than not you will not be punished for it. However the second you decriminalize, or even legalize either, you’re saying that as a society it’s acceptable to go bag a hooker and blow some spleef which some would say as a liberation of society, but I for one see as a step backwards morally as a society. I’m saying this as an atheist who has strong moral convictions. I’m basing the moral loosening in that if I had to explain this to a child, or even a teenager that it is “bad” to go solicit a hooker, I’d have a tougher time justifying myself if prostitution was legalized. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/52 "2009-05-28T22:55:03Z")
**pancakes3** Yeah, I disagree with you completely. I think I should be able to snort coke off of a hooker after winning both in a poker game. I don’t believe in legislating personal morality and think that it’s actually a greater moral failing to do so than it is to allow it. But…you are definitely getting the spirit of the debate. Where do you think your moral ideas on these topics stem from? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/53 "2009-05-29T00:26:49Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > I’m basing the moral loosening in that if I had to explain this to a child, or even a teenager that it is “bad” to go solicit a hooker, I’d have a tougher time justifying myself if prostitution was legalized. I don’t understand this. It is perfectly legal to lay around the house all day drinking cheap whiskey, playing with your penis, and watching The Montel Williams Show, but I wouldn’t have a problem telling my kid that it probably isn’t the best lifestyle. Legal does not equal good, moral, and acceptable. It just means that you are free to partake of that activity without getting in trouble with the cops.. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/54 "2009-05-29T01:11:17Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Supposedly, legalizing prostitution would solve this, but in practice it doesn’t. In places where prostitution has been legalized, the number of prostitutes who purchased a license and operated in a legal brothel, etc. is minor. Most prostitutes remain as illegal workers, under the same conditions as before, and the legality of it brings more money into the industry, and actually doubles (on average) the number of illegal prostitutes working in a country–usually trafficked in from another country. > > The problem is that most prostitutes are underage, drug addicts, runaways, or otherwise being used as the property of an abusive slimeball. And unfortunately, it looks like most of the customership of prostitutes is more than happy to make the jump to illegal workers. It lets them pay less and get more. They can hit the girl, have anal sex, forgo using a condom, or whatever else they want. …I’m sure you will be able to find statistics to support your conclusions, but legalization done right in practice does work, and work well. New Zealand has had legalised prostitution for a few years now: and in my humble opinion the industry is safer for both sides and working extremely well. I support legalised prostitution and challenge you to find a reason why the law should be changed here in New Zealand. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/55 "2009-05-29T01:38:30Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m sure you will be able to find statistics to support your conclusions, but legalization done right in practice does work, and work well. > > New Zealand has had legalised prostitution for a few years now: and in my humble opinion the industry is safer for both sides and working extremely well. I support legalised prostitution and challenge you to find a reason why the law should be changed here in New Zealand. This is a really good argument. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/56 "2009-05-29T02:22:48Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If it was legal they wouldn’t be walking the streets. Except for that where it has been legalized there were even more women walking the street afterward. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/57 "2009-05-29T02:52:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m sure you will be able to find statistics to support your conclusions, but legalization done right in practice does work, and work well. > > New Zealand has had legalised prostitution for a few years now: and in my humble opinion the industry is safer for both sides and working extremely well. I support legalised prostitution and challenge you to find a reason why the law should be changed here in New Zealand. I can’t find any decent numbers on trafficking or even the number of prostitutes. The Prostitution Law Review Committee appears says that there were 5000+ prostitutes in 2003 but their last survey only found 3000. Not because the number of prostitutes diminished, but because they changed their survey methodology. At the same time, there’s several reports that the number of prostitutes has doubled or quadrupled. So pretty much that’s just unknown. Until there’s good, consistent data, making any judgement on the state of things in NZ is foolhardy. It’s possible that with NZ being out of the way that they’ll be able to stay clean, but so far there’s no reason to think that NZ will escape the problems that have occurred in every other country. If it stays clean, well then I’m happy for you, but I wouldn’t hold out hope. I also wouldn’t trust a government oversight committee that can double or half their survey results in any given year based on methodology. [http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf](http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf) (PDF) [http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:1eFvvWuq078J:www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/prostitution\_spain\_july04.pdf+new+zealand+trafficking+prostitution&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us](http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:1eFvvWuq078J:www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/prostitution_spain_july04.pdf+new+zealand+trafficking+prostitution&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) [Error 404](http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1316907/1831498) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/58 "2009-05-29T03:52:52Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I can’t find any decent numbers on trafficking or even the number of prostitutes. The Prostitution Law Review Committee appears says that there were 5000+ prostitutes in 2003 but their last survey only found 3000. Not because the number of prostitutes diminished, but because they changed their survey methodology. At the same time, there’s several reports that the number of prostitutes has doubled or quadrupled. So pretty much that’s just unknown. > > Until there’s good, consistent data, making any judgement on the state of things in NZ is foolhardy. It’s possible that with NZ being out of the way that they’ll be able to stay clean, but so far there’s no reason to think that NZ will escape the problems that have occurred in every other country. > > If it stays clean, well then I’m happy for you, but I wouldn’t hold out hope. I also wouldn’t trust a government oversight committee that can double or half their survey results in any given year based on methodology. > > [http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf](http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Report%20on%20NZ%2010-29-2008.pdf) (PDF) > [http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:1eFvvWuq078J:www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/prostitution\_spain\_july04.pdf+new+zealand+trafficking+prostitution&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us](http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:1eFvvWuq078J:www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/prostitution_spain_july04.pdf+new+zealand+trafficking+prostitution&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) > [Error 404](http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/1316907/1831498) …concession accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/59 "2009-05-29T04:07:37Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …concession accepted. Let’s pretend that I’m pro legalized prostitution. In fact let’s pretend that I’m in the process of studying to be a BDSM dom, which is a related profession. Why pretend that? Because it’s true! Wow! So I say again, I haven’t seen reliable data. [Prostitutionresearch.com](http://Prostitutionresearch.com) has never appeared to be a source for unbiased information. Neither of the other two links I included gives much in the way of actual numbers. But, at least I _looked_ for something concrete. Saying that everything appears okay from where you’re sitting is a meaningless statistic. You might as well go visit some rich politician in Mexico who’s under house arrest and say that prison conditions in Mexico are better than in the US, if all you’re looking at is reviews of high end brothels. So find data that seems reliable year to year and present it if you think there’s something there. But at the same time realize that if New Zealand is doing well, that’s an anomaly. In all other places where there’s been legalized prostitution, it hasn’t had the benevolent effects that were intended, from what all data I’ve seen–generally in the form of government reports. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/60 "2009-05-29T05:47:53Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Let’s pretend that I’m pro legalized prostitution. In fact let’s pretend that I’m in the process of studying to be a BDSM dom, which is a related profession. > > Why pretend that? Because it’s true! Wow! > > So I say again, I haven’t seen reliable data. [Prostitutionresearch.com](http://Prostitutionresearch.com) has never appeared to be a source for unbiased information. Neither of the other two links I included gives much in the way of actual numbers. > > But, at least I _looked_ for something concrete. Saying that everything appears okay from where you’re sitting is a meaningless statistic. You might as well go visit some rich politician in Mexico who’s under house arrest and say that prison conditions in Mexico are better than in the US, if all you’re looking at is reviews of high end brothels. So find data that seems reliable year to year and present it if you think there’s something there. But at the same time realize that if New Zealand is doing well, that’s an anomaly. In all other places where there’s been legalized prostitution, it hasn’t had the benevolent effects that were intended, from what all data I’ve seen–generally in the form of government reports. …for starters you need to prove that there is something inherently wrong with prostitution. If I want to have sex with somebody else in exchange for money, why should I not have the right to do that? You originally stated: > [@](#): > > Supposedly, legalizing prostitution would solve this, but in practice it doesn’t. This is an absolute statement: I believe you are wrong. I believe that New Zealand proves that in practice legalizing prostitution can help solve some of the issues you were talking about. The US State Department report you cited has widely been disputed and relies on figures from 2004. It is widely considered to be a joke. > **[NZ rebuffs child trafficking, prostitution claims in US report - NZ Herald](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/nz-rebuffs-child-trafficking-prostitution-claims-in-us-report/JPVPXKVDIJWUT4L5AJFFT5T4NQ/?c_id=87&objectid=10427915)** > > Stay updated on the latest crime news, police investigations and court cases with NZ Herald. Explore stories that matter in law and order > [@](#): > > But a spokesman for Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters said the figures had been repeatedly misrepresented in the report, which had been discredited in previous years. > > In the past the Americans themselves have acknowledged it wasn’t an accurate reflection, but once again the report seems to have been issued without any changes," the spokesman said. Earlier you stated: > [@](#): > > In places where prostitution has been legalized, the number of prostitutes who purchased a license and operated in a legal brothel, etc. is minor. Most prostitutes remain as illegal workers, under the same conditions as before, and the legality of it brings more money into the industry, and actually doubles (on average) the number of illegal prostitutes working in a country–usually trafficked in from another country. > > The problem is that most prostitutes are underage, drug addicts, runaways, or otherwise being used as the property of an abusive slimeball. And unfortunately, it looks like most of the customership of prostitutes is more than happy to make the jump to illegal workers. It lets them pay less and get more. They can hit the girl, have anal sex, forgo using a condom, or whatever else they want. Taking this point by point: **the number of prostitutes who purchased a license and operated in a legal brothel, etc. is minor.** In New Zealand a licence is only required if a brothel has four or more workers: so the many sex workers do not even need a licence. This Justice Department commisioned reports have some relevant statistics: [http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/ex-summary.html](http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/ex-summary.html) **Most prostitutes remain as illegal workers, under the same conditions as before, and the legality of it brings more money into the industry, and actually doubles (on average) the number of illegal prostitutes working in a country–usually trafficked in from another country.** Please provide evidence this is an issue in New Zealand. \*\*The problem is that most prostitutes are underage, drug addicts, runaways, or otherwise being used as the property of an abusive slimeball. \*\* For New Zealand I would like you to prove this assertion. \*\*And unfortunately, it looks like most of the customership of prostitutes is more than happy to make the jump to illegal workers. It lets them pay less and get more. \*\* Sorry to have to ask again: but again in context of New Zealand can you provide any proof of this? **They can hit the girl, have anal sex, forgo using a condom, or whatever else they want** Again, from a New Zealand perspective can your provide any data that proves this is the case? You state that New Zealand may well be an “anomaly”. I have looked at the implementation of some sex work laws in other countries in part based on previous posts you have made, and many of those implementations are fundementally flawed. But I wouldn’t look at New Zealand as an _anomaly_, I would look at us as the _model._ The legistlation was drafted in full consultation with the community, the police, and the prostitutes themselves. It treats all participants in the industry with respect: from the guys and girls who use the services to the men and women who provide them. I’ve quoted her before: I will quote her again. This is Georgina Beyer: former Mayor and NZ Minister of Parliament, Transexual,former prostitute, and a wonderful, wonderful lady. > [@](#): > > GEORGINA BEYER (NZ Labour—Wairarapa) > > I rise to make my contribution to the third reading of this bill, which I support. I would like to begin by expressing my gratitude to the members of this Parliament for a considered and varied debate from both sides and both points of view. Along with that, I congratulate supporters of both sides of the argument for their contribution, which expresses a fair view from both sides of the nation. I particularly congratulate and pay great credit to Tim Barnett, who has had the courage and commitment to see this bill through to this most important point. > > I support the bill, because, as everybody knows, I have had experience in the sex industry—and I am the only member of this Parliament to have had it. If I had had a law like this to protect me and give me some teeth for redress when I was 16 and 17 years old—even on entering into the sex industry—then I might have been spared the 5 or so years I spent in that industry. Barriers would have been created against people who would coerce those under 18 to enter the sex industry in the first place. I support this bill for all the prostitutes I have ever known who have died before the age of 20 because of the inhumanity and hypocrisy of a society that would not ever give them the chance to redeem whatever circumstances made them arrive in that industry. > > This bill provides some of that protection. It provides people like me at that time with some form of redress for the brutalisation that might happen when a client pulls a knife. The horror of that situation is that it could be a life and death one—one does not know—but it would have been nice to know that instead of having to deal out justice afterwards to that person myself, I might have been able to approach the authorities—the police in this case—and say: “I was raped, and, yes, I’m a prostitute, and, no, it was not right that I should have been raped, because I said no, and it was not paid attention to.” > > I think of all the people I have known in that area who have suffered because of the hypocrisy of our society, which, on the one hand, can accept prostitution, while, on the other hand, wants to push it under the carpet and keep it in the twilight world that it exists in. We are bringing prostitution reform into the light with some of what is proposed in this bill, and the criminal element does not necessarily like to be standing in the glare of greater public influence over how an industry like this might be conducted within our society. It is about accepting that that occurs, and it is about accepting the fact that the people who work in this industry deserve some human rights. I plead with those members in this House who are wavering right up to the wire, to think, for heaven’s sake, of the people of whom I have just spoken, including myself, who might be spared some of the hideous nature of the way society treats prostitutes—because that is here with us. > > But if one does have fears, this legislation will be reviewed in 5 years to see how it is operating and whether it is effective. If this bill passes tonight, in 5 years we will be able to reassess its worth. That is something that those who are wavering should be comforted by. But to do nothing now would be irresponsible of this Parliament, because the status quo would remain, and that is unacceptable. This is our one chance in perhaps 20 years to do something. Whatever side of the argument we take, I know we all come from a humanitarian point of view, but I beg members to consider the side I am on, and the side many others in this House are on also. It is the side I consider to be right. It does not diminish, in my opinion, the opinions of those who are against this bill, because some valid points have been made, but not to address this issue now, with this possibility, is not right. > > I will conclude by saying that right now we have a sex industry, and we have legislation based on an outmoded double standard. Let us change, please, the part we can. (Hansard transcript reprinted under Section 27 of the NZ copyright act.) [http://www.hansard.parliament.govt.nz/hansard/Final/FINAL\_2003\_06\_25.htm#\_Toc67114307](http://www.hansard.parliament.govt.nz/hansard/Final/FINAL_2003_06_25.htm#_Toc67114307) > **[Georgina Beyer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgina_Beyer)** > > Georgina Beyer MNZM JP (November 1957 – 6 March 2023) was a New Zealand Labour Party politician who represented Wairarapa in the Parliament of New Zealand from 1999 to 2005, after serving as mayor of Carterton from 1995 to 1999. Beyer was the world's first openly transgender mayor, and the world's first openly transgender member of parliament. As a member of the Labour Party Beyer supported progressive policies including prostitution law reform, civil unions, anti-discrimination laws, and the ... 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