# Is it merely religious bigotry that keeps Prostitution illegal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 28, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930 "2009-05-28T14:56:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/61 "2009-05-29T07:45:46Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …for starters you need to prove that there is something inherently wrong with prostitution. If I want to have sex with somebody else in exchange for money, why should I not have the right to do that? What about anything I said indicates that there’s something inherently wrong with prostitution? I fully agree that people should be able to sell sex. But I also agree that people should be able to enter into indentured servitude and that people should be able to practice Communism. The morality of things isn’t the issue, it’s the real world results. I personally can’t convince myself that the right to sell sex is such a necessity to mankind that doubling the number of sex workers being raped every year is worth it. People can live with wacking off into a tissue and watching porn. The benefit gained by having legal prostitutes is largely non-existant to anyone who’s not actually interested in sexuality as a lifetime profession, which is really a tiny number of people. > [@](#): > > Please provide evidence this is an issue in New Zealand. Me: I can’t find any decent information on NZ. You: Well then provide evidence that it’s bad in NZ. How exactly does A lead to B in any logical sense? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/62 "2009-05-29T09:21:59Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > What about anything I said indicates that there’s something inherently wrong with prostitution? I fully agree that people should be able to sell sex. …well we agree on something. > [@](#): > > But I also agree that people should be able to enter into indentured servitude and that people should be able to practice Communism. The morality of things isn’t the issue, it’s the real world results. The real world results of legalisation of prostitution in New Zealand have not been negative. To quote from the DOJ study cited earlier: > [@](#): > > In conclusion, this research has highlighted many positive outcomes from the decriminalisation of the sex industry. In some cases it has been shown that there is little change following the enactment of the PRA, but it is too soon to see many differences. Sex workers have been a marginalised and vulnerable population and have experienced much stigmatisation and exclusion from society. This cannot change rapidly with the enactment of a law and so the full health and safety benefits may only be seen in a number of years’ time. What has been shown by this research is that there have been few, if any, negative consequences in terms of the health and safety of sex workers post-decriminalisation or the numbers attracted to participate in the industry. [http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/chapter-8.html](http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/chapter-8.html) > [@](#): > > I personally can’t convince myself that the right to sell sex is such a necessity to mankind that doubling the number of sex workers being raped every year is worth it. Yes, because since prostitution was legalised in New Zealand the number of sex workers being raped every year has doubled…oh hold on, no it hasn’t. Feel free to show me the sudden spike in rape of sex workers since the legistlation change. > **[Data and statistics](https://www.police.govt.nz/about-us/publications-statistics/data-and-statistics)** > > New Zealand Police > [@](#): > > People can live with wacking off into a tissue and watching porn. The benefit gained by having legal prostitutes is largely non-existant to anyone who’s not actually interested in sexuality as a lifetime profession, which is really a tiny number of people. We are talking about a commercial transaction here. People go to prostitutes for all different reasons. Some go for the sex. Some go for the companionship. Some go because they are horrible people and it gives them a chance to be horrible. Some go because they need that contact, and they lack the social skills to get that contact in any other way. What right do you have to say that Joe Bloggs should just “whack off into a tissue and watch porn?” As for the motivations for getting and staying in prostitution: [http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/chapter-5.html#524](http://www.justice.govt.nz/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/impact-health-safety/chapter-5.html#524) 80% of respondents valued sex work for the hours. 25% don’t want to get any other work. 39% stay in sex work because they enjoy the sex. I don’t vouch for the veracity for the statistics but in the circles I move in they seem pretty accurate. Prostitution happens. Even in places that it is illegal. What benifits are there to society to keep the industry underground? I was watching an episode of Cops the other day and watched as a streetworker was arrested and put in jail for “loitering with intent.” Seriously: what the hell is up with that? > [@](#): > > Me: I can’t find any decent information on NZ. > You: Well then provide evidence that it’s bad in NZ. > > How exactly does A lead to B in any logical sense? **You:** “Prostitutes live awful lives.” “They are raped and beaten and strung out and even murdered.” “The majority of them suffer from PTSD and I suspect that there are probably issues with sex addiction as well.” “Most prostitutes remain as illegal workers” “The problem is that most prostitutes are underage, drug addicts, runaways, or otherwise being used as the property of an abusive slimeball.” “most of the customership of prostitutes is more than happy to make the jump to illegal workers.” “Supposedly, legalizing prostitution would solve this, but in practice it doesn’t.” **Me** That doesn’t match up with my experience and what happens in NZ. Any proof? **You** Nope. But I will repeat all of my assertions restated in different ways! ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/63 "2009-05-29T17:21:49Z")
I would not be stunned with amazement if there are married women who either do not enjoy sex themselves or use sex as an instrument to get their own way with their husbands who might be against legalising prostitution. If the husband can pop into town and relieve himself without any drama then the wife no longer has an instrument of control. Personally I’m all for legalisation for purely pragmatic reasons. It would be much more difficult for unwilling women to be forced into prostitution. Their income could be taxed. STDs could be controlled. Rapes would go down. Ordinary women would not be pestered by kerb crawlers who have mistaken them for working girls. Pimps would be eliminated. Sexual harassment by frustrated men would most probably drop significantly. Crimes against the prostitutes(Sex murders,beatings and robberies)would be eliminated. Marriages could be saved where the wife doesn’t enjoy sex,instead of the husband seeking relief in an affair that becomes emotional,leading to a break up he gets his rocks off as a purely commercial venture and stays with his wife. Men who have psychological problems caused by enforced abstinance due to unattractiveness or shyness would be helped. Crimes against customers would not be possible. I do not use prostitutes myself(Well I would say that wouldn’t I) as I for one couldn’t afford them,and two wouldn’t fancy catching an S.T.D. and also thinking about it the idea doesn’t turn me onbut that said I have no moral objection against it and don’t look down on those who do partake. ---
**Author:** ![Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brown_eyed_girl/32/3574_2.png) [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brown_Eyed_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/64 "2009-05-29T19:48:27Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well no, they weren’t the ones who were supposed to put out in that situation. 😛 > > Sorry, but it was just sitting there all irresistible-like. Heh. Very good. 😃 :o :smack: ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/65 "2009-05-29T19:59:11Z")
**Sage Rat** Your assertion that prostitution goes up and that it increases rape has to be backed with cites. Otherwise you’re just making things up. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/66 "2009-05-29T20:02:13Z")
It really has nothing to do with the OP in any case. I don’t think it’s been demonstrated that ‘religious bigotry’ is what keeps prostitution illegal…it’s kept illegal simply because it’s fairly unpopular in most western nations. For MY part (as a libertarian type), I’m all for making it legal. But…ain’t gona happen. And that’s not simply because of the bible thumpers. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/67 "2009-05-29T21:07:36Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > I would not be stunned with amazement if there are married women who either do not enjoy sex themselves or use sex as an instrument to get their own way with their husbands who might be against legalising prostitution. > If the husband can pop into town and relieve himself without any drama then the wife no longer has an instrument of control. With a deal like that, what man would even _try_ to please his wife? He can just pay someone to pretend she enjoys it – much less work! The minority of women who would be okay with this situation probably wouldn’t be swayed one way or another based on the law. In theory, I am for legalization in the interest of sex workers’ safety and rights. (It would be nice if it encouraged a ‘humanizing’ of them e.g. giving a shit when they’re assaulted or murdered, but stripping’s legal and they’re still sub-human in many circles.) But, in addition to a parallel black market and sex trafficking, I’m also worried that what I would assume would remain illegal – hiring underage prostitutes – ignores the reality of most prostitutes’ lives, not to mention johns’ tastes. Most don’t turn 18 and decide they’d like to make some extra money, they follow the classic childhood molestation/trauma –\> runaway –\> drug addict –\> prostitution path. And there’s no lack of men looking specifically for underage girls (and they don’t all seek them abroad). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/68 "2009-05-29T21:11:02Z")
**Cat Fight** In the Massage Therapy industry professional associations, schools and the like aggressively pursue unlicensed rub and tug places. Why would prostitution be any different? You have a legal way to stifle the competition. So legal prostitutes would be the greatest advocates for getting the illegals out of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/69 "2009-05-30T02:41:11Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Sage Rat** Your assertion that prostitution goes up and that it increases rape has to be backed with cites. Otherwise you’re just making things up. Here’s a list of all the various data I’ve found over the years: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6912223&postcount=65](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6912223&postcount=65) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7922640&postcount=36](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7922640&postcount=36) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6511210&postcount=63](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6511210&postcount=63) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7929128&postcount=66](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7929128&postcount=66) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10085465&postcount=6](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10085465&postcount=6) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6448162&postcount=38](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6448162&postcount=38) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/70 "2009-05-30T06:42:58Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > **Cat Fight** In the Massage Therapy industry professional associations, schools and the like aggressively pursue unlicensed rub and tug places. Why would prostitution be any different? You have a legal way to stifle the competition. So legal prostitutes would be the greatest advocates for getting the illegals out of the game. I’m not quite sure what you mean (or it’s a joke and I’m dense) – you think spas or clinics employing actual, qualified massage therapists are competing for clients with handjob parlors? ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/71 "2009-05-30T07:36:46Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > It’s possible that with NZ being out of the way that they’ll be able to stay clean, but so far there’s no reason to think that NZ will escape the problems that have occurred in every other country. Australia has had legalised prostitution for a lot longer, since 1979 in New South Wales. > **[Prostitution in Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Australia)** > > Prostitution in Australia is governed by state and territory laws, which vary considerably, although none ban the selling of sex itself. > There is no evidence of pre-colonial prostitution amongst Indigenous Australians. However, sexual practices more consistent with the modern understanding of polygamy were common, such as the exchange of women to demonstrate friendship. Colonial-era prostitution was controlled via legislation such as the colonial versions of the Contagious Diseases Acts, pa... What negative consequences has this had? Brothels are inspected for cleanliness and condom usage. They pay tax. They even have a union: > **[Scarlet Alliance](https://scarletalliance.org.au/)** > > Scarlet Alliance and Touching Base unequivocally reject Minister Bill Shorten’s public declaration to exclude access to sex work services under the NDIS. Please provide cites for how this has damaged or harmed Australian society in any way. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/72 "2009-05-30T16:59:55Z")
"What about opposition to prostitution on religious grounds? Is that a form of bigotry? " I think it’s not religion associated much anymore, although I’m sure that’s where it started. By now it’s just a long ingrained prudishness about sex. As unfunny as I believe the comedian Gallagher to be, he did say this about prostitution; “Why is it illegal to sell what it’s perfectly legal to give away for free?” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/73 "2009-05-30T19:03:44Z")
Well, if it was merely religous bigotry then you’d see a pretty clear line of demarcation between notions of different religions. But you don’t. Here’s a list of nations with legalized and regulated Prostituion: > **[Prostitution law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulated_prostitution)** > > Prostitution laws varies widely from country to country, and between jurisdictions within a country. At one extreme, prostitution or sex work is legal in some places and regarded as a profession, while at the other extreme, it is considered a severe crime punishable by death in some other places. > In many jurisdictions, prostitution – the commercial exchange of sex for money, goods, service, or some other benefit agreed upon by the transacting parties – is illegal, while in others it is legal... Note that all of them are “Christian” nations, with the execption of Senegal and Turkey. There are no Hindu nations, only two Moslem nations, no Buddist nations, etc. We also have the USA on that list, with Nevada. If it was on religous lines we’d expect to see nearly all the nations of one (or more) mega-faith having legalized it, while others would have criminalized it. So, the Op is thus proved wrong. As had been said before, it’s more a case of morals- as opposed to religion, \*per se. \* ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/74 "2009-06-01T16:07:17Z")
Why would legal prostitution have to be regulated? Why licenses? That could just encourage the parallel black market already mentioned. I make a girl an offer, she accepts, money and sex are exchanged but wait, what if she didn’t have a license? Is it like driving, could we be caught boning without a license? Why the devil would we as a society simultaneously pursue a libertarian aim of legality in principle AND a liberal expansion of bureaucracy? These and other logistical questions are going to plague the prostitution debate far longer than moral finger-wagging. Furthermore, morality and religion are separate constructs that can and often do operate independently. The attempt to link prostitution and SSM is weak, nonsensical, and thoroughly disproved. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/75 "2009-06-01T17:24:37Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Australia has had legalised prostitution for a lot longer, since 1979 in New South Wales. > [Prostitution in Australia - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Australia) > > What negative consequences has this had? Brothels are inspected for cleanliness and condom usage. They pay tax. They even have a union: > [http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/](http://www.scarletalliance.org.au/) > > Please provide cites for how this has damaged or harmed Australian society in any way. You haven’t read what I’ve written. When prostitution has been legalized in various places, on average it has expanded the number of **illegal** prostitutes working by double to triple. That life improves for legally operating prostitutes is irrelevant if the whole goal to begin with was to improve life for all prostitutes. Creating double or triple the number of illegally working women in the same awful conditions as before isn’t a step forward. As I said earlier in this thread, if you look at a rich politician in Mexico under house arrest in his beach-side mansion, that really doesn’t tell you anything about the quality of prisons in Mexico. You have to look at the _entire_ image if you want to draw any conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/76 "2009-06-01T22:53:09Z")
> [@Chopper9760](#): > > Why would legal prostitution have to be regulated? Why licenses? That could just encourage the parallel black market already mentioned. > > I make a girl an offer, she accepts, money and sex are exchanged but wait, what if she didn’t have a license? …in New Zealand this transaction would be legal: because a licence is only required if a brothel has four or more sex workers. How would this legal transaction encourage the black market? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/77 "2009-06-01T23:14:07Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You haven’t read what I’ve written. When prostitution has been legalized in various places, on average it has expanded the number of **illegal** prostitutes working by double to triple. That life improves for legally operating prostitutes is irrelevant if the whole goal to begin with was to improve life for all prostitutes. Creating double or triple the number of illegally working women in the same awful conditions as before isn’t a step forward. > > As I said earlier in this thread, if you look at a rich politician in Mexico under house arrest in his beach-side mansion, that really doesn’t tell you anything about the quality of prisons in Mexico. You have to look at the _entire_ image if you want to draw any conclusions. …so can you tell us about the “entire” image of prostitution in Australia? What conclusions can you draw? Can you define an illegal prostitute? Can you cite the doubling or tripling of illegal prostitutes in either NZ or Australia? (I know you posted several links before to posts you have made with citations: but I am looking for the specific cite thanks) ---
**Author:** ![Chopper9760](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Chopper9760](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chopper9760)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930/78 "2009-06-01T23:18:09Z")
Good for New Zealand, they’ve been an excellent exemplar for this discussion. If you legalize prostitution under some sort of license system there will still be those people that find the strictures of licensing untenable and the result _could_ be an expansion of illegal prostitution as described by **Sage Rat.** Might not be either, it sounds like things are going well in New Zealand. My point was that there are a lot of practical and logistical concerns regarding legalized prostitution. My question was, why not just make it legal - no license, no paperwork. That’s just my knee-jerk ‘let’s keep the government small’ response. Considering commercial scale, taxes, insurance, and human health, NZ’s rule of 4 probably works out pretty well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-it-merely-religious-bigotry-that-keeps-prostitution-illegal/497930.md?page=3)